Trashproof?

[Gbeagle]

Ya'll killing me and not so softly either !!!!!! I for one will never say never . I will say they haven't yet !!!!!! Now I do believe there are some dogs that may never run a deer in it's life , but to say ya got a line that wont is stretching it out to me . Thats just like saying every dog out of a line is gonna be a FC . They are beagles !!!!!!! Don't need to say anymore than that .

[Ralph Pearson]

A line that doesn't run deer. Who has that?? I want to talk to them. Some of my pups run them and when they do. I get rid of them as I don't like feeding a dog that runs deer. Seems to be a waste of money to me. I always keep the ones that don't run them and I raise pups from them. Seems to work. Nothing secret or genius about it. A 5 year old could do it if you explained it to him. Billy, when we pick out our mommy and daddy dog, lets get 2 that haven't run any deer while we were hunting them. Maybe in a litter of 8 they will have 2 or 3 or 4 or 6 that don't run deer either. Kid looks up and says " OK Dad". As for the deer population here, it is extremely high. Truth is they are thick. You will not cut a dog loose anywhere here that does not have lots of deer. No polar bears or yaks but lots of deer. Since my last post. another person says they have some trashfree dogs. Swamper, I am very worried about you. I think we should have a prayer for you. "Lord, Ralph Pearson here. Methodist. Sir we are all a little worried about Swamper and if you really are the Lord then you already know what I am thinking. So Lord, if you wouldn't mind could you help us out? Thankyou Lord> Amen

[doubleb]

i agree with ralph if you breed 2 beagles that run deer pups wont be deer proof if you breed 2 that are deer proof chances are better pups will be when i say deer proof i mean 2 that never ran deer not dogs that have been corrected for running and broke.does that mean those dogs will never run deer no because you have to be smarter than the dog to train one an some people just are not capable

[AlabamaSwamper]

If I take a dog out of an environment that it was bred to perform in, I have done nothing scientific nor have I proven that dogs do not have a natural genetic preferance to run certain types of game. Not a fair test. If I build a car and tell you it can go from 60mph to a dead stop in 20 ft, would it be a fair test to put oil all over the road to prove to me that it can't stop in 20 ft.? .

WHAT?????????

That is like saying that I can take a pitbull and make a rabbit dog out of him if I put him the pen with my beagles.

It is exactly what I said, if I take a so called "genetic engineered rabbit dog" and put him with deer dogs, HE WILL LEARN TO RUN DEER. When he runs that first deer at 7 months old, that will prove that genetics played one role in this, "scent trailing". Nothing more, nothing less.

Building a car and breeding dogs is like apples and squash it's so far off from each other.

Your argument is silly/ If you put a dog into a pack of deer hounds, over time there are other forces at work that will determine of the dog runs deer. .

Silly?

If it's in it's breeding to not run deer, then why would putting it with deer hounds change anything?

It's in my genetics to be a white man. Had I been adopted by black parents would my skin have changed color?

I am not stupid enough to train a dog to run deer when I am only interested in rabbits, why do I care if someone could train them to run deer. .

Well, someone would only care if it proved their "trashproof" line was no longer trashproof.

I am pretty sure the only trashproof that any rabbit hunter is interested in is a dog that doesn't run deer when trained on rabbits. I think you must have stock in the collar company and insist that a rabbit dog runs deer..

Well, DUH!

I never said I have to shock dogs every time I go. Usually, maybe, once or twice a year. I think 1/2 of those are sight chases out of thickets but either way, I burn them up when they do it. 99% of the time, they ignore them and go about their business.

Several people on this thread have witnessed trashproof dogs. I guess thay are al lying..

NO, I've had dogs that never ran a deer while at my house. I have one that was 4.5 when he so much as barked on his first one. Not sure if it was a reaction to the other dogs or not but I burned him anyway. I normally don't run a collar on him but I was a long ways from home and I never trust a hound.

Your trashproof argument is ridiculous.

Until someone brings me a litter of pups out of one of these lines and they absolutely won't run a deer, is it really that ridiculous? I'm still waiting.

[warddog]

All I can say is it is NOT silly when somone makes a claim of having "TRASHPROOF" lines to ask them to substantiate it. Now, Mr. Pearson has put all kinds of man made twist to the situation that is NOT even in the realm of a scientific test. First off you have to compare apples to apples and realize that there is a difference in being God made and being man made. Natural is God made. Beagles were domesticated from the wild with the propensity to survive. In the wild survival means that an animal will have to hunt and capture it's pray for fuel. I doubt that a car will be slipping on oil without you intervening by giving it the fuel to operate let alone slip at all or that a hungry beagle alone in the wild will have the natural selection of putting rabbit only on it's dinner plate. What are you talking about Mr. Pearson, as the environment a dog was bred to perform in, is the wild? What you have in your kennel is dogs that, you sir, have taken from their natural environment and imposed YOUR will on them. I see nothing NATURAL about the way in which we handle rabbit dogs. Of course the result is what we all strive for so we continue to put our dogs into an environment indicative of what we want as an end result. If you don't want trash runners, keep them from an enviornment relatively free of trash. If you don't want trash runners don't run them with trash runners. In doing so we have taken the "NATURAL" out of the equation all together and intervened to limit the exposure to elements outside of or correction to what we want or don't want out of them. To make a statement of having a "TRASHPROOF" line or dog for that matter would then put the burden of proof on the maker of that statement. They would have to show a process of establishing the validity of the statement in accordance with accepted or stipulated principles of reasoning. That's what I mean when I say the science behind the statement, being able to prove your claim in a manner that would hold up to the scrutinity of peer review, time after time. In order for anyone to prove to me the claim of having "NATURALLY TRASHPROOF" hounds or lines they would have to show me where these dogs were turned loose into the NATURAL environment without the interferance of man to fend for themselves, their entire lives. NO food, No water, No shock collars and NO interferance by man at all. I would highly doubt that if left for generations in the wild you would see ANY that were "NATURALLY TRASHPROOF" but that is the claim being made by some.
I can tell you I have seen the opposite right here where I live as this area seems to be the dumping grounds for many dogs. Some are hounds and some are flat out mutts that probably never knew anything about hunting or the difference between a rabbit from a mole. There is a pack of about 12 to 15 dogs of any and every breed you can think of that have been dumped into the wild environment to survive on their own. I've sat in my deer stand and watched them running rabbits as well as one could be run and I've also seen them smoke a deer or squirrel just as well. It appears that their NATURAL desire is to survive and if to do so they must pursue their meal and they appear to have no preference. That my firends is NATURAL and your right, Mr. Pearson there is no science behind that as it's called NATURE or survival of the fittest. Every species has that unfeathered desire to survive and will do whatever it takes to do so and I highly doubt minus man's interferance there is a NATURAL selection of what goes on the plate for supper tonight. Naturally, Genetically, Trashproof I doubt it, man made or taught behavior is more to my belief.

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Trash Proof = runs nothing but rabbit
Deer Proof = runs small game animals but not deer


I've got a 9 1/2 yr old male that has not been deer broke. He will run pheasants! It has been hard to raise deer proof offspring (about 50%) out of him, but it can be done.
1. When the pup is young start it on rabbits before it ever smells a deer.
2. Don't run the young pup with strange dogs that might trash.
3. Don't try to get the pup to take deer, just let it run rabbits.
4. Run a shock collar on the pup 100% of the time, so if the pup chooses deer you can correct it on the spot!

Out of the 5 running dogs in my kennel, only one has ever been deer broke. Still waiting for the other 4 to try it.

I've got a group of Coyote hunters up here breeding a strain of deer proof running walker. Coyote dogs running deer are a pain.

I think alot of young dogs are "taught" to run deer from older trashy dogs. I've had excellent results running pups with naturally straight dogs.

I think in the next couple generations i'll lose this deer proof gene and i'll be right back to breaking dogs.

Time will tell,
Lone Pine Beagles

[Ralph Pearson]

I will agree that talk is cheap. Wardog and swamper have just taught me that genetics plays no role in the choices a dog makes. I have learned that I can't breed beagles that won't run deer while they are being hunted and trained on rabbits. The idea about substantiating is a good one. If you want to see it, come and see it. Come go hunting and see how many deer old Bell runs. I guess all my dogs are deer runners now. They must be doing it when I am not around as I have never seen it. Well, thanks for the genetics lesson and the biology lessons. One last question. What do I need to do to catch my dogs running deer? Maybe I will have to do some covert operations. I could dress up as a possum and act like I was just passing through and maybe catch them that way. I also think their is a service that sells photos taken by one of them spy sattelites and I could order some and look them over to see what I could see. Could put up video cameras everywhere like they do at the bank. One boy said to train a dog you have to be smarter than the dog. In my case I don't know if thats possible. Well I will have to cut this short as I am going online and see what kind of deal I can get on one of them shocking collars. Just think, a remote controlled hunting dog. What will they think of next!!

[Ralph Pearson]

Just happened to think, if old Ben Franklin hadn't discovered electricity, there wouldn't be any deerproof Beagles and we would all be raising poodles. Thanks Ben!! Now if one of you would just invent a machine to shoot the rabbit and clean the rabbit, we wouldn't even have to get out of the truck. Which gets me to thinking again, I got to get me one of them automatic feeders and automatic waterers. This site is GREAT!! Its changing my whole life. Honey, don't forget to pay the electric bill!

[SouthernBeagles]

Ralf,
I have had beagles never offer at a deer or other off game and have had some I though would NEVER get broke. The trick (like stated above) is in the training in the younger years. Put a pup with trash runners and you are going to have trash runners no matter if YOU think the strain is trash proof or not. I think THIS is the point Alswamper was trying to make.

I have a pack of dogs I would bet the house wouldn't run a deer. I also have TWO packs of pups I wouldn't be so quick to bet on. It takes a WELL TRAINED TRASH FREE DOG to break the others (or a tattle tale if you will). If the pups never get the chance to enjoy the race then the breaking part is half way done!

I had a young male at the derby trials this spring that had not offered on a deer before. ALL IT TOOK was for another pup to start the race and before we caught them this dog was leading the pack! He hasn't ran one since! I BET YA if he had not been exposed to deer runners before he was two he would most likely not ever take a deer as he wouldn't recognize it as a runnable scent. I might even go so far to claim he was naturally trash free. Can you see where I am going with this???????

Now the reason I asked you about your deer population in your area (which you could not give me the percentages on) is because at times there are more deer in the area here than rabbits. Deer have a strong smell and are easier to run so pups that are hunting hard and have a strong desire to track will sometimes open and go on deer. 45 deer per sq. mile is a lot of chances! That is the reason WHY we run old dogs with the young ones, NO PUP can be trusted down here. Now AGAIN, I aint saying I have a bunch of trashy pups but at one time or another most pups will attempt to run a deer scent. It is up to me and my tattle tale to determine whether what that pup is opening up on is rabbit or trash. The smarter I am about it and the less desirable I make it for that pup to smell that deer track, the easier it is to trash proof the pup.

Now someone else said that heads up hit and miss the line type hounds were more prone to be trashy........No offense but BULL! I run a med. speed nose down type hound and again its up to me to train the pup what is acceptable to run. Hounds with a lot of desire to run track no matter what the speed or style are prone to run deer. It boils down to desire and fire!

[Ralph Pearson]

What percentage of deer could I not give you? What percentage did you give me. You said you had 45 deer per square mile. I have hit 2 in the lat 3 months about a mile from my house which is very rural. I tell you the deer are thick and I mean thick. Are you trying to imply that my dogs don't run deer because there aren't any deer. Come over here at night and we will drive around on this 1,000 acres I live on and I will show how thick they are. I will bet you I have more deer and bettert deer hunting than anywhere in the US. Get off it. I must admit, I feel very sorry for some of after you descibe to me what you call ahunting dog and all the deer runners you have. That would take the fun completely out of it for me and I would quit feeding dogs completely. I think some of you are looking for an excuse to justify you breeding your deer runners. That don't float around here so save your breath. Have you ever thought that maybe you shouldn't be breeding to deer runners. Throw your stupid shock collars away. This reminds me of people who have some of the worst kids and they stick up for them when they get into trouble because they can't stand the thought of the truth. Their kids are bad actors and trouble makers but they are too proud to admit it. I wonder why my dogs don't run possums?

[AlabamaSwamper]

Where would that be?

I could tell you real quick.

That doesn't matter.

Ralph, I never once said you couldn't train your dogs to run rabbits only. If you find that somewhere in this debate then please bring it forward.

I only said that you "couldn't" breed a dog that won't run a deer if given the chance. Get your story straight.

You yourself said you have deer runners and get rid of them. That ought to tell you something. You ain't breeding them either.

That is the basis for my whole argument. I'm sorry some of you can't see that.

Those that breed dogs to try and breed for some "trashproof" gene are waisting their time. Plain and simple.


Shocking a dog once or twice a year is the least of my worries. I don't cry if they do it and I sure don't sell them. If I had one that ran one every time out, then yes, it would find a good home with a deer hunter. So far, I haven't had that problem. I kill as many rabbits as my heart desires and that is all that counts.

I've seen plenty of "foxhounds" that wouldn't run a deer bred and the pups were deer dogs. I"ve seen plenty of "rabbit" dogs that wouldn't run a deer bred and the pups were deer dogs and I've seen plenty of coonhounds bred that wouldn't run a deer and the pups were deer dogs.

I've also seen plenty of trashproof dogs bred and the pups had to be broke.

You are trying to twist it now and it ain't working.

Training and breeding is apples and oranges but you are getting closer to the same.

[SouthernBeagles]

LOL Ralf,
My aren't we a smart elic! It is a shame that you can't disagree without becoming condescending. Don't worry none of us are perfect and neither are our dogs

I think we can agree to disagree. I am going to stick with my theory on your hounds that you have some well trained older dogs and very few deer and a LOT of rabbits. Again, most dogs won't run a deer if they don't recognize deer as runnable scent. If a pup doesn't run one by the age of two, they most likely never will. That does NOT make them a trash free line. Just means that your area is ideal for training and hunting beagles. Can you at least tell us what state you are from???

There is absolutely NOTHING you can say that will change my mind on this. I have better things to do than to bump heads with you all day on this but I just hate to see folks so set in their ways and unable to understand the experience of others. I can see your point but again, read what I wrote above. I repeat I have had dogs NEVER offer on deer but will never say in a gazillian years that my line is trash proof. EVEN IF I WENT 1O generations without a single pup having ran a deer. In the right situation ALL beagles will run trash and until someone can put a 6 week old pup in training with deer dogs and have them refuse a deer race to run a rabbit, I will continue to respectfully disagree with you.

[Ralph Pearson]

Now you say I have some well trained OLDER dogs. You are silly. They might have trained themselves. While you were arguing with me, several people have provided evidence that says there are dogs born that are dogs born that won't run deer. Please ignore that because they must be lying. You are not really interested in the truth but more interested in just being right. I have had Beagles for over 40 years. You are trying to convince me that the dogs I have here that I use for hunting last year and all the other years are deer runners. I can't wait to tell my buddies about you. I bet they rush right and buy them a shocking collar now that you have educated us. Just think, for all this time we had no idea we needed one. I have learned a lot from you bit it wasn't about dogs.

[blackdirt beagles]

Brian,

Don't get all uptight about this. I don't know why folks do. I've said we agree on this but we have different ways of saying it.

My point is simple.

I could take a pup from your kennel and make a deer dog out of him. Simple as that. That's not a knock on anyone's kennel. I could take them from mine, your's, Bev's or anyones. It's not that hard to do. Starting dogs on deer is 100% easier that rabbits.

Like I've said, train them right and you don't have near as much problems. Although, you still have them from time to time. Why folks want to say their lines are "trashproof" is beyond me. There is no such thing, never was, never will be.

Now, let's all hug and make up. lol

there is no doubt in my mind that if you wanted to and tried to, you could make a pup from me (or most anyone) run a deer or a fox or a cat or a car. im talking natural desire to run rabbit. i start my pups in the field with the old dogs and if im busy at work, i send them to a pen... and once they are started, they run with the regular pack and run across all kinds of scents to run if they like. as hardheaded as most beagles are, if they wanted to run a deer, they are gonna do it. there is no secret way to train them... its their natural desire.

look at the beagles they use in the airports for drug sniffing... think that is bred into them?? heck no, they take a beagle and force train them to search for drugs or bombs or whatever.

[Ralph Pearson]

Swamper says he can train a dog to run deer by running it with deer runners. Sounds logical and in fact many dogs have started running deer when they were hunted with deer runnners. I learned early on that Beagles were bred to pack with one another. My question is: What would you do if I sent you a dog that wouldn't pack to another dog? I have owned several like that. I used one of them when I started breeding beagles. Old Dottie would not pack to another dog. They could be running rabbits, deer or T-bone steaks and she could care less. She lived for one thing. To run rabbits. You could runa dog with her and she didn't mind. You could not expect her to run with them though. She cared nothing about what another dog was running. She is the taproot female of my family. I have linebred on her. That is part of the recipe with my dogs that don't run deer. I have bred for a dog that will pack but only once and if the other dog is a liar, they won't go to them anymore. That is what I meant when I said there were other traits invloved besides deer running per say in a deer runner. My dogs have a strong independant trait in them. They will run with an honest pack just fine but throw them into a bunch of idiots and they walk away so to speak. The trtait can be increased or subtracted depending on the cross I make. That is a trait that a lot of families are missing, especially the field trial bred dogs. At first I was worried about using her and tried to breed away from that independance until I saw and learned that it was a good trait to have a little of in my dogs. It keeps them on task and as pups they train easier because they are not always shouldering and worried about what the other dog is doing or worried about beating it. When I get a pup that shoulders a dog it tells me that pup is worried about beating the other dog and will most likely end up a cheater with no independance. It will not be interested in running the rabbit correctly but will always be subject to the influence of other dogs. I can still breed a dog that won't hark from this family. I found out later that her father has some brace in him and she must have inherited a bunch of that with her other traits. Swamper how are you going to train that dog to run rabbits by packing them with deer runners if it won't pack. If a dog inherits about 75% of that trait along with the desire to run rabbits and not deer, you are most likely to get a deer proof dog under hunting conditions. A lot of the stories I have seen here about deer runners state they became deer runners because they ran with deer runners or were incited by another pup to run one. I suggest you start paying attention to the independant trait and put some of it in your dogs if you get the chance. There is an old saying about kids when you send them to do a job for you, especially if you give them the car keys. Research shows that the more teenagers there are in a car, the more likely they are to have a crash. One boy whole boy, 2 boys half a boy and 3 boys no boy. Do you understand that concept.