Trashproof?

Gbeagle · Post by **Gbeagle** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:28 pm

I got one here seen this with my own eyes jumped a deer he ran past me headed for the truck LOL. Do I trust him ?? No !! He still wheres a collar . Ever heard the saying

as soon as you brag on your dog it will make an A$$ of you

or better yet

never trust anything that will eat it's own poo or hump it's own kin

I prefer to say they haven't run one yet but you never know LOL !!!!!

Ralph Pearson · Post by **Ralph Pearson** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:51 pm

Some dogs are born trash free. The preferance to run certain types of game os genetic. Some won't admit it because they want to think their dogs are good even though they had to be broke off deer. Since they had to break theirs, they can't stand the thought that maybe someone breeds dogs that won't run deer. They just haven't been around, thats all. I have seen many Beagles that were hunted in deer all their life and never ran one. You can call me a liar all you want but it won't change the facts. It runs in families. I never try to break a deer runner. I get rid of them. Its that simple. Nothing complicated about it at all.

mike crabtree · Post by **mike crabtree** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:48 pm

Ralph Pearson, What breeding do you run?

Cove-Creek · Post by **Cove-Creek** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:41 am

What methods do the people with "naturally trashproof" lines use to determine whether their dogs are actually "trashproof" or if maybe exposure to different things as puppies may influence what they choose to run. I think that some hounds just prefer to run rabbits, but that does not mean they would not have taken the off game if first exposed to it.

Do you guys with these naturally straight lines actually try to start all your pups on trash before rabbits to assure that the line is "trashproof". I would not think you do, but how else would you know for sure?

Ralph Pearson · Post by **Ralph Pearson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:22 am

What breeding do I run? I run my breeding. What methods do I use? I take them hunting. You are making it way too complicated. I also have bred dogs that have run deer, meaning I used them as parents. My method on that is to let them run a deer once or twice to see of they like it. The ones I bred have run a deer the first time for quit a while. The second deer they ran a 100 yds or so and came back to me. Sometimes they will even act agitated or anxious to get away from that deer. I once had a big male that jumped one and ran straight for a busy highway. He was looking at the deer up close and barking every breath and suddenly stopped and wheeled around 180 degrees and came to me on a dead run. If I hadn't seen it I would not believe it but it happened. I never did use him for breeding as I sold him. I also have owned or sold dogs that never ran one deer ever. The only thing I can guess about this is my dogs are real houndy looking and don't seem to want to run fast game like deer. Wouldn't say they won't run a fox but have never had any trouble. Never really thought about I guess. I don;t have traditional brace dogs but think about this. How often do you think a brace dog would run a deer? I would say not too often. I think that shows it is genetic and the same principle applies to any type dog. I have had coon dogs that would never run a deer from the time they were a pup on up. I have seen them try to work a deer track when one got up in front of them and they acterd like they couldn't hardly smell it and came back to me like nothing happened. It simply depends on the dog and how bad the owner wants to find a dog like that. They are out there.

mike crabtree · Post by **mike crabtree** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:58 am

I have seen some that wouldnt run Deer under pressure naturally. Problem was they just didnt have much fire or grit.

I guess some think they can breed for Trashproof beagle,and they may very well be able to, but I doubt they have the same desire to run if it is possible.

Cottontail Chaser · Post by **Cottontail Chaser** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:21 am

I have only seen 2 dogs in my life that were naturally trashproof with no correction devices or methods used and I have run with hundreds of dogs..I use preventative treatment when they are young so they learn nothing good will come from running anything other than a rabbit by putting them where I see multiple Deer and I actually hold them up so they can see the Deer as this is essential I believe so if by chance they jump one up they know the scent and looks of a Deer, I start working them like I work them rabbit hunting and then I usually start to back off when they get to where the Deer are and when they start smelling and acting Happy or follow the smell ,turn the dial up and hit-em two or three times and then praise them when they get to you. I usually only need one or two treatments and then have no problems with Deer...I just did this with my derby and last night she came right back as soon as she crossed the Deer trails and then proceded to jump two rabbits all by herself so she knows the difference between a rabbit and a deer now...Fox is a whole diferent story and much harder to break but I fortunately had a coyote come out on my Derby and they had a face off 30 yards from me and I got to hit my derby with the collar on to let her know that a yote or fox will bring the same discomfort as a Deer scent now after the summer is over and fall begins she will have had a few reminder lessons I will need to pressure break her and see her turn down a trash-run under pressure of other dogs running. I keep one dog strictly for this and put her on Deer to start the run and let the young dog go check it out and I also put my older broke dog In there so I see that a rabbit hasnt jumped up in front and when that older dog breaks away any other dog opening gets Level 6 until they are heading right for me and usually after one or two trips they are fully broke from trash as some are broke from the earlier treatments and never open so by hunting season I don't worry when I hear that first jump.. Its my method anyway.. Good Luck

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:05 pm

Ralph Pearson wrote:Some dogs are born trash free. The preferance to run certain types of game os genetic. Some won't admit it because they want to think their dogs are good even though they had to be broke off deer. .

I got some ocean front property in Kansas also. Cheap too!

We've all seen dogs and owned them that wouldn't run a deer. I've had a few. They wasn't raised running deer either and were smart. They run what they were trained to run.

Coming from a deer hunting with dogs background, I can tell you that I've seen my share of "trashproof" lines turned into jam up deer dogs. They'll run whatever I teach them to run or they won't run anything.

I have said it once and I'll say it again:

If you bring me a litter of these so called "trashproof" lines, I bet my house that the deer dog hunters around here can have them running deer in no time at all. What does that mean? nothing really, just the fact that they aren't genetically programmed to run a certain scent but they will run whatever scent they are trained to run.

IN fact, I talked to a friend the other night that still runs deer with dogs in north Alabama. We talked about this. He had some guy down the road that raised bluetick hounds. Swore for years they wouldn't run no deer. Swore he had it bred out of them. David laughed while telling this. He said he got a pup and at 7 months old he took him out with his older dogs last summer. 2 trips later he was burning them up and made a fine addition to his kennel. THe guy got pissed because his "trashproof" coon dogs were shown to not be trashproof at all.

Seen it with beagles 100's of times. 2 and 3 y/o rabbit dogs sold to deer hunters and told they couldn't get them to run deer and what do you know, they ran with the best of them.

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:46 pm

you can "make" a beagle run about anything if you want to... but mine have no natural desire to run anything but a rabbit. ive seen and owned quite a few that never ran anything but a rabbit their whole life. we got a ton of deer and coyote here to tempt them if they wanted to run some trash. as for desire, i got to use a shock collar for handling as they usually dont like to quit. you can decipher all that as you want and say whatever makes you feel better, but the bottom line is my dogs dont run trash and ive seen them turn down many jumped deer while in the woods.

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:42 pm

Brian,

Don't get all uptight about this. I don't know why folks do. I've said we agree on this but we have different ways of saying it.

My point is simple.

I could take a pup from your kennel and make a deer dog out of him. Simple as that. That's not a knock on anyone's kennel. I could take them from mine, your's, Bev's or anyones. It's not that hard to do. Starting dogs on deer is 100% easier that rabbits.

Like I've said, train them right and you don't have near as much problems. Although, you still have them from time to time. Why folks want to say their lines are "trashproof" is beyond me. There is no such thing, never was, never will be.

Now, let's all hug and make up. lol

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:30 pm

I agree Swamper and know exactly what you are saying. I think the genetics of some blood lines throws in the stonger propensity to run rabbits in lieu of any other game BUT that does not make that line "trashproof". Trashproof means that the line will NEVER run trash. Until a line has been scientifically tested by putting them into EVERY situation that they could possibly be put in and they NEVER run a deer then and only then could the statement of being "Trashproof" be validated. All science has a protocol or a method by which the situation is tested and then it has to pass the scrutinity of a peer review as well. A statement minus any scientific basis or being subjected to peer review is nothing more than an opinion lacking validation. For a line to be truely "trashproof" to me it would have to pass the very peer review that I think Swamper is alluded too. From what I have gathered the deer are lousey in that part of the country and I'd have to see this line cast out in a pack of those deer burners down there and this line go off by itself and run a rabbit when the rest of the pack are smoking a deer. I've owned several that I had no problems with trash running but I've NEVER owned one I would put into that situation. Of course I'll never make a statement that one is "Trashproof" either as I'd then have the burden of proving it. Ever wondered why you never see any of those "Trashproof" lines being sold with a double your money back lifetime quarantee against "trash" running?

Ralph Pearson · Post by **Ralph Pearson** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:28 pm

If I take a dog out of an environment that it was bred to perform in, I have done nothing scientific nor have I proven that dogs do not have a natural genetic preferance to run certain types of game. Not a fair test. If I build a car and tell you it can go from 60mph to a dead stop in 20 ft, would it be a fair test to put oil all over the road to prove to me that it can't stop in 20 ft.? The Beagle is also known as being one of the more gentle breeds but I could teach it to bite your mother in law if I wanted to. Your argument is silly/ If you put a dog into a pack of deer hounds, over time there are other forces at work that will determine of the dog runs deer. A dog inherites more than one or 2 behavior traits. The only type of trashproof I am interested in is when I am out hunting rabbits and there are deer tracks and deer in the area. It is of no benifit to me to have a dog that will turn down deer after it has been trained to run deer. To breed for that trait would be a total waste of time. Since I am not stupid enough to train a dog to run deer when I am only interested in rabbits, why do I care if someone could train them to run deer. I am pretty sure the only trashproof that any rabbit hunter is interested in is a dog that doesn't run deer when trained on rabbits. I think you must have stock in the collar company and insist that a rabbit dog runs deer. I know all about hunting deer with dogs so don't think you have a lock on that aspect. Deer dogs come in all shapes and sizes and a lot of Beagles are used because a lot of beagles love to run deer. Several people on this thread have witnessed trashproof dogs. I guess thay are al lying. Me and my buddies do not own a shocking collar and we train lots of pups. We never try to break a dog off deer. We shot over 175 rabbits last year and never had one deer chase. Thats all we care about. Under the conditions and environment we use them in, they are trashproof. If you want them to be trashproof in other situations you are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. My old dog was laying on the porch and a June beetle ran across the porch and he caught it and ate it. I guees now he is a trash runner. My car was on a solid sheet of ice and didn't stop in the distance the operators manual said it would. I guess now my brakes are no good or maybe my tires. Should we recall the car because it couldn't do something it was not designed to do. Is the car unsafe or have the builders lied about it? A car is designed to operate under certain conditions and if you try to use it for something it was not designed for, the results will be dissappionting. A dog is no differant. You may be a strong person but if I ask you lift a Buick off my foot and you couldn't do, does that make you weak. Couldn't we say that asked you to do something that you were not designed to do? Your trashproof argument is ridiculous.

SouthernBeagles · Post by **SouthernBeagles** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:47 pm

Ralf, What what part of the country are you from and what is your deer heard population per square mile??? In my area there are about 45 deer per square mile.

Post by **Bev** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:52 pm

I think sometimes we forget history. Beagles are naturally gonna be harder to break off fox than deer because in years past, and even still these days, they were used to hunt BOTH fox and rabbit. I forget the beagler who said it, it may have been Frank Reese (Gay bloodlines), but don't quote me.... anyway the guy said "if a beagle couldn't run a rabbit all day and a fox all night, he wasn't worth havin'." (or something to that effect)

I consider them naturally trash free if they've never been corrected on "off-game" and they've turned down several "off-game" riots. I've had a few like that and I appreciate them sooooooo much.

None of my dogs (so far) have ever had any desire (knock wood) to mess with a cat.... except 9-yr-old Dolly. She will smoke a housecat - take it to the next zipcode if need be, and will kill it if she can get ahold of it. She hates those bastages... (rotfl) One time in an ARHA trial when she was 2 years old, they scored her on jump, strike, and 2 short checks on a cat. She ran it solo for a good 20 minutes (and nobody got a clue) until the judge finally saw the cat go up and over a fence and Dolly was hot on it. I've never corrected her on housecat, and don't plan to. ((*snickers*))

doubleb · Post by **doubleb** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:25 pm

if wasnt for shock collars more dogs would be bred not to run deer but collars mayed it so know one carried if sire an dam ran deer well shock the pups used to we tried to breed deer prove dogs since collars we dont care dogs today are trasher than they ever been also with everyone looking for speed breeding dogs that run with head up not running every track more prong to running deer