TO Bob
I will agree on some of what you said, "BUT" not all of it though!
Some people will tell the truth about a hound they are selling! Tell about all the goods and bads of the running style of each hound even if he knows the guy or not!
Yes, you will find some sellers to lie about a hound or "like you said" will know how to run a hound to hide the faults in the hounds to sell them!
ON HAND EXPERIANCE in hounds for sell is the only way I buy hounds anf think everyone needs to go see a hound run before buying the hound. If I'm not able to go see the hound run myself, then I do not buy it even if it is a Field Winner or a FC.
I know what I want in my kennel and will buy the hound if I think it can help in my breeding program! Don't mind paying good money for a good hound and even was givin a hound to me before and she is one of my best hounds. (The reason she was givin to me, was because she doesn't like women ot kids, but has come around alot since I let my Mother raise a litter of pups off her and my mother said she was gietting used to her a little eacj day!)
I guess you can say all my running hounds I have bought off somebody because they are/where culls to them, but looks like I have some really nice hounds that can and have placed in LIC TRIALS for me and even won the Southern States Derby Championship with a Cull I bought. I know I don't have perfect hounds so far but everytime I breed, I breed to improve my kennel unlike some so-called breeders that breed just to get big money for their pups and hounds!
Talk later,
Briarcreek Kennel Supplies]
Briarcreek Beagles
David N. Riley II - Bglenut
what are the chances of getting a truly good started dog???
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Hare Hunter
- Posts: 302
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:10 am
- Location: Newberry Michigan
dosgris, it is possible to buy a good started dog or even a finished dog, I once bought a 2 year old male from an AKC trialer, he was a very good dog, the reason the guy sold him was the dog was over 13 inches and that is all he raised, dogs 13 inches or less, I also bought my 4 year old male ( that I would not sell for about any price) from a guy that had raised his own dogs for a long time, he had 3 left from a litter he raised, he had to cut down as he had more pups coming on, he would sell only 1 of the 3, the dog was 15 months old at the time, I bought him and hunted and trialed him, he placed 2nd, 1rst, 3rd, and another 1rst in the only trials I put him in as an open dog, he inpressed enough other beaglers that he has had quite a few dates in the last year and a couple more in the near furture when the females are ready. I also will be breeding him to a female that I have that is going to be close line bred. I have a male out of him that will be 2 this September, that young dog ran on some mighty bad conditions this winter, he also will be staying here. So yes you can buy good started dogs, know what you are looking for and go watch them run, even if it costs some money to do so it will be cheaper in the long run and knowing what you are buying up front will save many possible heartaches in the furture. Good luck. Hare
Earl Holbrook
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SMITTY1233
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 12:52 pm
I would say it is possible I just bough a year old male that is a good looking hound. I judge what makes great by how many years of great running I have with them so It is a little early to tell if I have a truly great hound but I believe I got a dang good one and when all is said and done I will put him in with the other greats I have had.
hounds... hare.... hunter.... bang... what gets better than that.
SMITH BROS. BEAGLES
KRIS SMITH
517-881-0353
SMITH BROS. BEAGLES
KRIS SMITH
517-881-0353
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Bob
I started like you last year, but I didn't ask questions, so you're 1 up. I struck up a communication with Don Potts (http://www.beagleunlimited.com) and told him if he ever had a dog too fast for SPO to call me. Some months later he did. The 1 1/2 year old female didn't hunt as well as I would have liked, but she ran well, and handled like a dream. I found a rabbit in the bed and sent her in. She can now "DO IT ALL". She has a home for life. I got lucky and was able to purchase a little mate to her. Wow! can she run a rabbit, but needs help with the hunt. We WIll work it out. I even bought a male that "can flat role a rabbit" off the web. Good solid dog, got picked up this weekend for being too slow. He is medium speed and a fast hound. I bought a little bitch from the same guy and he didn't know what he have. She placed 2nd 2 weeks age in an ARHA Progressive Pack hunt. I bought another bitch from this guy that died and the replacement was a diaster. All in all, I'll drop my 3 bitches with ANYONE for a days hunt and may hurt some feelings.
Go to some trials and meet some of the people you want to run with. This was my biggest mistake not going to some trials first. Theere are some good dogs changing hands between trialers. It is a good opportunity to rub elbows and make friends. They may even help you find some good dogs, or at least advise you. Good luck.
Bob
Go to some trials and meet some of the people you want to run with. This was my biggest mistake not going to some trials first. Theere are some good dogs changing hands between trialers. It is a good opportunity to rub elbows and make friends. They may even help you find some good dogs, or at least advise you. Good luck.
Bob
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Bob
There are two "Bob"s posting as guests on this thread. I'm the one that posted May 19 at 5:48 AM, not the Bob from the May 19 12:48 PM. I'd be posting as 'Bob in Ohio" if my password still worked.
I hope dosgris keeps my advice in mind when they look at dogs. I really hate to see some breeder take advantage of an honest person. Without a longtime personal relationship, his (or her) odds of getting a dog better than what he/ she has are slim to none- just about the same as a multimillion dollar lottery win.
Bev,
Yep, been on the internet for years. Went through every web site I could find, went through all the old posts too. Read all the magazines I could find. Talked to everybody I could. I talked to you as a matter of fact. Although you did not recommend the breeder who ripped me off, I did find him through an ad in TAB.
I'm quite sure the "bad" breeders are known. The sad thing is that people like me, and likely dosgris, have to find them the hard way. What does this tell you about the "good" breeders?
Bob (in Ohio)
I hope dosgris keeps my advice in mind when they look at dogs. I really hate to see some breeder take advantage of an honest person. Without a longtime personal relationship, his (or her) odds of getting a dog better than what he/ she has are slim to none- just about the same as a multimillion dollar lottery win.
Bev,
Yep, been on the internet for years. Went through every web site I could find, went through all the old posts too. Read all the magazines I could find. Talked to everybody I could. I talked to you as a matter of fact. Although you did not recommend the breeder who ripped me off, I did find him through an ad in TAB.
I'm quite sure the "bad" breeders are known. The sad thing is that people like me, and likely dosgris, have to find them the hard way. What does this tell you about the "good" breeders?
Bob (in Ohio)
I hate to say it, but I'd have to agree with Bob. Most people aren't going to sell you a really good dog, mainly because a REALLY good dog is so hard to find. I've had Beagles for 22 years, started with grade dogs that I really didn't think were that good, mainly because I had nothing to compare them to. Well, I ended up letting those dogs get old and never got any pups off of them before they died. I didn't think it was that big of a deal since good dogs wouldn't be too hard to find................wrong! I've gone through 16 purchased dogs in the last ten years and out of those 16, I've had 5 keepers. That's a 29% success rate when buying dogs-not very good. Most of those 16 were started dogs that I bought after watching them run a short while in the field or after several conversations with a breeder asking him all the "right" questions. Everyone will tell a newcomer to go and watch the hound run before you buy and that will guarantee you'll be satisfied. Well, all I can say is that after going through so many dogs, it finally became obvious (even to me) that watching a dog run for an hour or two was not enough time to properly judge a hound and make a good buying decision. I'd have to watch a hound all day long several days in a row in different weather conditions if I really wanted to make a good buying decision. Even then, dogs can change habits after bringing them home, I've seen a dog's checkwork change drastically after a couple of months of running at a new home. This dog was ran solo for a month or so at her new home and one day for no apparent reason, she started reaching out pretty far on a check, so nothing is guaranteed.
Since I really disliked driving long distances and spending even a night or two away from my family, traveling around the country spending the time necessary to properly evaluate a dog before buying it was something that I just wouldn't be able to do. In all honesty, I don't know too many sellers that would be willing to spend 8hrs a day 3-4 days in a row showing you a hound either. Only if you were to get a hound on a 2 week trial would you have enough time to properly evaluate it. There are a couple of problems with that scenario too. One is finding someone honest enough to give your money back if you decide to bring the dog back. This probably isn't as big a problem as all the travel time or shipping expenses involved if the hound you're looking at is several states away. If driving, one trip to pick the hound up and if it doesn't work out, another trip to return it. If shipping the hound by air, you could have more money wrapped up in the shipping cost by the time you return it than the price of the hound in the first place-not to mention the travel time to and from the airport which is 3 1/2hrs away in my case! With the batting average I've seen with buying hounds I would have spent a lot of time on the road returning hounds if I'd have bought them all on trial. I might have been able to save a little money by being able to return the hounds, but my time on the road is worth a lot to me too.
I appreciate all the information that's available out there from the internet, but even a breeder recommendation from a well respected, knowledgeable person may not be totally accurate.
A case in point: I'd been reading and hearing about a breeder from down south that was very successful in the trials with dogs that everyone said were medium speed. What was really unusual however was that I hadn't heard a single bad word from anyone about this breeder or his hounds. In fact, one person that ran their own Beagle message board who I respected for their honesty and tell it like it is attitude owned a dog from this kennel and said that this breeder was honest and very particular about the dogs he breeds.
So I got in touch with this breeder and after a few nice phone calls discussing his dogs, their traits and my list of requirements, it seemed like his dogs would fit the bill. I even called a few people who'd bought dogs from him and everyone was completely satisfied. It was a good thing I wasn't in a real big hurry because he had a list of people who wanted pups. The first clue I should've listened to that might of told me something sounded strange was was in my very first phone call to him when he said several times that he didn't advertise because he wasn't in it to sell puppies. A few phone calls later when we were discussing grade dogs, he said he switched over to AKC registered dogs because you can't sell many pups if you don't. I didn't think too much about it at the time because I'd probably said some contradictory things in the past before too.
After a few more phone calls, he told me that he had a young male and two young females that had been running in the starting pen that he would be willing to sell. The young male was doing really well as was one of the females while the second female was just doing ok. I specifically asked several times if they could run their own rabbit solo. He said they could. We talked it over quite awhile and even though the breeder was almost 12hrs away from me, he offered to meet me halfway and let me pick 2 dogs out of the 3. He said if I wasn't happy with them, he'd take them back too. What a deal, no bad references at all and he's even going to meet me halfway! This would save me a lot of driving so I agreed and we set a date to meet halfway.
When I arrived at our meeting place, imagine my surprise when he shows up with only two dogs. I asked where the 3rd dog(the male) was and he said that he figured I'd really be happy with the 2 females and sold the male to another guy. I hesitated a little but he said he'd guarantee that I'd like these two dogs or he'd take them back. He said there was a guy a week or two earlier watching them run in his starting pen who tried to buy one of them. Well, after 6hrs on the road I didn't want to go home empty handed (and I think he knew this) so I ended up taking the two females. Got them home and put them in the kennel for about a week before taking them out in the field. One of them (the one the breeder said was the better of the two) was extremely shy acting, so I really spent a lot of time trying to get her used to her new home. During that first week, I noticed the other female was very mean to the shy one at times, growling and snapping and even pinning her to the ground so I kenneled them separately.
I took them to the field together 4-5 times over the next week or so but never had any runs longer than about 20yds. I then took them out separately a couple of times and neither could circle their own rabbit. The shy female really hated being put on a lead and would continually bite and fight it as we walked along. This was something that no matter what I tried, would not change. I called the seller and told him about it, but got the impression that he didn't really believe me, especially about not being able to run a rabbit. When he said that he just knew they could run their own rabbit, it finally dawned on me. I should of asked not if they COULD run their own rabbit, but if they EVER HAVE run their own rabbit! After discussing it for awhile and wondering if it was just the running conditions(since I didn't have any other dogs to judge by) I told him that I'd keep trying. After a few more times in the field, I decided to take them to someone with a starting pen. After a week or so at the starting pen, I called to check on their progress. I was told that one of them started and was really doing good but the other just wouldn't do much at all. After another week, I was told again that one of the females was going really good but the other wouldn't do much at all and in fact, at times she would run out and attack the other female when she'd come by running the rabbit. This guy, who has years of experience with rabbit dogs and is very honest said he'd never seen anything quite like it before and was of the opinion that the mean female would probably end up ruining the good one if continued to run together. He suggested returning her and if the breeder wanted to call him to ask about her, he would be glad to talk to him.
Before I went to pick the two up, I called the breeder and told him the situation. He still acted surprised but did mention that he'd seen the female be a little rough on some other dogs in his kennel before but didn't think it was serious. He even said this female's sire was the same way(imagine that) but was a very good dog in every other way. Here's where it really got interesting.
The breeder said, "Well, I don't want you to be unhappy with them, so I'll take them both back".
I said, "Both? what do you mean? The guy who's starting them for me says that one is doing pretty good so I'd like to keep her".
Breeder: "Well I can't just take one back, I'd have to have them both. I could sell the good one to the fella that saw her running in my starting pen, he just asked about her again the other day. The mean one I'd probably just keep for a brood bitch".
I couldn't believe my ears! It was bad enough that he would only refund my money (minus my $200 starting pen expenses of course)only if he got both dogs back, but to come out and actually say he'd keep the mean one who couldn't run a rabbit for a brood bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So much for the honest guy that watches his breedings very closely. At this point, I really wanted to tell this guy what I thought, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that this was really my own fault. I should've never brought these dogs home, especially after driving 6hrs only to find that he brought 2 dogs instead of the 3 we'd agreed on.
About the best advice I can give to someone looking to buy a started dog is to make a very detailed list of the all the requirements you have for a started dog and never, never, never forget that your definition of hard hunting, good line control, easy handling and slow,medium or fast speed will NOT be exactly the same as the guy you are buying from. I should've done something like that years ago when I started buying dogs, actually sit down a write up a list of all the things I required in a hound. Who knows, it might have saved me a lot of time and money. All I ever wanted was some good rabbit dogs but it took me about 10yrs to figure out that my definition of a good rabbit dog was alot more demanding than most. I've kept a diary of sorts with regard to my dog buying fiascos over the years that may make for some interesting/embarrassing reading someday and decided a few years ago to breed my own hounds. I am much happier now. Sorry for the long winded post, but I can sympathize with Bob on this one.
Since I really disliked driving long distances and spending even a night or two away from my family, traveling around the country spending the time necessary to properly evaluate a dog before buying it was something that I just wouldn't be able to do. In all honesty, I don't know too many sellers that would be willing to spend 8hrs a day 3-4 days in a row showing you a hound either. Only if you were to get a hound on a 2 week trial would you have enough time to properly evaluate it. There are a couple of problems with that scenario too. One is finding someone honest enough to give your money back if you decide to bring the dog back. This probably isn't as big a problem as all the travel time or shipping expenses involved if the hound you're looking at is several states away. If driving, one trip to pick the hound up and if it doesn't work out, another trip to return it. If shipping the hound by air, you could have more money wrapped up in the shipping cost by the time you return it than the price of the hound in the first place-not to mention the travel time to and from the airport which is 3 1/2hrs away in my case! With the batting average I've seen with buying hounds I would have spent a lot of time on the road returning hounds if I'd have bought them all on trial. I might have been able to save a little money by being able to return the hounds, but my time on the road is worth a lot to me too.
I appreciate all the information that's available out there from the internet, but even a breeder recommendation from a well respected, knowledgeable person may not be totally accurate.
A case in point: I'd been reading and hearing about a breeder from down south that was very successful in the trials with dogs that everyone said were medium speed. What was really unusual however was that I hadn't heard a single bad word from anyone about this breeder or his hounds. In fact, one person that ran their own Beagle message board who I respected for their honesty and tell it like it is attitude owned a dog from this kennel and said that this breeder was honest and very particular about the dogs he breeds.
So I got in touch with this breeder and after a few nice phone calls discussing his dogs, their traits and my list of requirements, it seemed like his dogs would fit the bill. I even called a few people who'd bought dogs from him and everyone was completely satisfied. It was a good thing I wasn't in a real big hurry because he had a list of people who wanted pups. The first clue I should've listened to that might of told me something sounded strange was was in my very first phone call to him when he said several times that he didn't advertise because he wasn't in it to sell puppies. A few phone calls later when we were discussing grade dogs, he said he switched over to AKC registered dogs because you can't sell many pups if you don't. I didn't think too much about it at the time because I'd probably said some contradictory things in the past before too.
After a few more phone calls, he told me that he had a young male and two young females that had been running in the starting pen that he would be willing to sell. The young male was doing really well as was one of the females while the second female was just doing ok. I specifically asked several times if they could run their own rabbit solo. He said they could. We talked it over quite awhile and even though the breeder was almost 12hrs away from me, he offered to meet me halfway and let me pick 2 dogs out of the 3. He said if I wasn't happy with them, he'd take them back too. What a deal, no bad references at all and he's even going to meet me halfway! This would save me a lot of driving so I agreed and we set a date to meet halfway.
When I arrived at our meeting place, imagine my surprise when he shows up with only two dogs. I asked where the 3rd dog(the male) was and he said that he figured I'd really be happy with the 2 females and sold the male to another guy. I hesitated a little but he said he'd guarantee that I'd like these two dogs or he'd take them back. He said there was a guy a week or two earlier watching them run in his starting pen who tried to buy one of them. Well, after 6hrs on the road I didn't want to go home empty handed (and I think he knew this) so I ended up taking the two females. Got them home and put them in the kennel for about a week before taking them out in the field. One of them (the one the breeder said was the better of the two) was extremely shy acting, so I really spent a lot of time trying to get her used to her new home. During that first week, I noticed the other female was very mean to the shy one at times, growling and snapping and even pinning her to the ground so I kenneled them separately.
I took them to the field together 4-5 times over the next week or so but never had any runs longer than about 20yds. I then took them out separately a couple of times and neither could circle their own rabbit. The shy female really hated being put on a lead and would continually bite and fight it as we walked along. This was something that no matter what I tried, would not change. I called the seller and told him about it, but got the impression that he didn't really believe me, especially about not being able to run a rabbit. When he said that he just knew they could run their own rabbit, it finally dawned on me. I should of asked not if they COULD run their own rabbit, but if they EVER HAVE run their own rabbit! After discussing it for awhile and wondering if it was just the running conditions(since I didn't have any other dogs to judge by) I told him that I'd keep trying. After a few more times in the field, I decided to take them to someone with a starting pen. After a week or so at the starting pen, I called to check on their progress. I was told that one of them started and was really doing good but the other just wouldn't do much at all. After another week, I was told again that one of the females was going really good but the other wouldn't do much at all and in fact, at times she would run out and attack the other female when she'd come by running the rabbit. This guy, who has years of experience with rabbit dogs and is very honest said he'd never seen anything quite like it before and was of the opinion that the mean female would probably end up ruining the good one if continued to run together. He suggested returning her and if the breeder wanted to call him to ask about her, he would be glad to talk to him.
Before I went to pick the two up, I called the breeder and told him the situation. He still acted surprised but did mention that he'd seen the female be a little rough on some other dogs in his kennel before but didn't think it was serious. He even said this female's sire was the same way(imagine that) but was a very good dog in every other way. Here's where it really got interesting.
The breeder said, "Well, I don't want you to be unhappy with them, so I'll take them both back".
I said, "Both? what do you mean? The guy who's starting them for me says that one is doing pretty good so I'd like to keep her".
Breeder: "Well I can't just take one back, I'd have to have them both. I could sell the good one to the fella that saw her running in my starting pen, he just asked about her again the other day. The mean one I'd probably just keep for a brood bitch".
I couldn't believe my ears! It was bad enough that he would only refund my money (minus my $200 starting pen expenses of course)only if he got both dogs back, but to come out and actually say he'd keep the mean one who couldn't run a rabbit for a brood bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So much for the honest guy that watches his breedings very closely. At this point, I really wanted to tell this guy what I thought, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that this was really my own fault. I should've never brought these dogs home, especially after driving 6hrs only to find that he brought 2 dogs instead of the 3 we'd agreed on.
About the best advice I can give to someone looking to buy a started dog is to make a very detailed list of the all the requirements you have for a started dog and never, never, never forget that your definition of hard hunting, good line control, easy handling and slow,medium or fast speed will NOT be exactly the same as the guy you are buying from. I should've done something like that years ago when I started buying dogs, actually sit down a write up a list of all the things I required in a hound. Who knows, it might have saved me a lot of time and money. All I ever wanted was some good rabbit dogs but it took me about 10yrs to figure out that my definition of a good rabbit dog was alot more demanding than most. I've kept a diary of sorts with regard to my dog buying fiascos over the years that may make for some interesting/embarrassing reading someday and decided a few years ago to breed my own hounds. I am much happier now. Sorry for the long winded post, but I can sympathize with Bob on this one.
Be careful as one man's trash is another man's treasure when it comes to rabbit hounds. Years ago, I came across a bunch of locals that claimed they had the "Rabbit Dogs"! Best in the country! The first time I went hunting with them, I found them jump shooting stay rabbits over a pack of "herders". Never saw on circled all morning. This was rabbit hunting 101 to them! All were rabbit hunters, but none were HOUNDMEN! You could not have bought one of these hounds from these ol boys and I would not have fed any of them.... 
DG TX, I agree with you 100%. There are a lot of so called rabbit hunters out there who own hounds, but are not even close to being houndsmen. Every year during hunting season, I end up talking to hunters who like to brag about the high number of rabbits they have killed. I have no problem with that at all. To each his own. But they have no idea how I can get excited about a hunt where we harvested 5 or 6 rabbits. If I wanted to kill 30, 40, or 50 rabbits in a hunt I know where to go to do it.
I get much more satisfaction in harvesting a handful of rabbits that have been run in a consistent way. It's all about the hounds. As far as I am concerned, the mark of a good hound is NOT how many rabbits have been killed in front of him.
I get much more satisfaction in harvesting a handful of rabbits that have been run in a consistent way. It's all about the hounds. As far as I am concerned, the mark of a good hound is NOT how many rabbits have been killed in front of him.
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MasonsBeagles
Research
Research my friend. Figure out what you want and go find it. Dont get in a hurry. There are dogs out there forsale you might have to pay dearly but for a dog that is exactly what I am looking for I would pay. I just got back into the game myself. Fortunately I am friends with the best houndsmen in the nation and had access to great stock. Two of the culls I obtained were hunted hard and ran harder know they are worth alot of money. I have turned down selling them. There are some good dogs on the market. If you like fast run to catch hounds out of proven stock. I suggest calling Earl and Patricia Bruner. Bruners LP Beagles. They are a good resource.
