Pedigrees - How to use them and how far back?

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sun May 18, 2003 6:17 pm

Dr. Phil would make a prety good dog trainer I think, but he would have to get some differant boots! I like him because he uses the accuation theory of counseling. He believes people can solve their problems if given the encouragement and info to do so. Seems more affective than Fraud and some of the other theories. Oh I forgot, this is a Beagle board. To answer your question, I bred my first litter of hunting Beagles in 1963 in northern Alabama. Still using the same technique of constantly searching for the right outcross to cross into my linebred hounds. My dogs are just average but I keep trying. Good luck!

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Sun May 18, 2003 7:55 pm

Bob wrote What bloodline of Beagle do you have hunt6?

I've told you before on another board.You forget? The blood I'm using to get back into beagles after a 10 - 12 year absence due to work is : Thorn Gap, Short's Pro bitch with a lot of hunt in her and her parents bred to FC Saluda River Little River Rebel.Place most of the faith in Thorn Gap.Wayne Thompson is a breeder that has forgot more about breedng than I or most beagle people know.

If you want to know so you can be little - nit pick well then I ain't playing.I've never passed myself off as a guru genetic master breeder or world champion field trialer.I'm a mere mortal muddling thru that has loved hounds my whole life.I try to learn more.But I do know the traits I want in a dog as I've had em before in the past.

I've talked to many people and hunted with their dogs and researched a ton of info in deciding what to start again with.If they turn out as duds I tell the truth about it and try another combo.Again I'm bout thru dancing with you....
Hunt6

DarrinG · Post by **DarrinG** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:05 pm

AlSwamper, you seem to be a very level-headed person, knowing what you want in your dogs...but dont think there are no quality, hard hunting AKC dogs out there. If a person really wants to stay in AKC stock, there are dogs out there. It just takes alot of foot-work so-to-speak to filter through and find what you are looking for.

IMHO, the AKC just about brought themselves swift destruction with beaglers with the Brace movement, but luckily for us, there were some steadfast breeders who still wanted hounds with hunt, desire, foot and brains that kept the true hunting beagle alive under the tent of AKC registration. To this day there are still some folks who when they hear "AKC Beagle", they think "walkie-talkie". Nothing now could be further from the truth, even though there are still some Brace dogs and brace beaglers still around. Just visit an AKC SPO trial and watch is all that it takes to see the difference!

If one finds a honest-to-goodness rabbit DAWG, AKC or not, and it has the traits he/she is looking for to better their pack, all I can say is go for it! But dont be fooled into believing one must go un-registered to find hard-hitting dogs loaded with hunt.

Good luck on whatever you do!

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:33 pm

Hunt6 wrote:Here is why I find this thread so interesting and why I understand where Bev and Alswamper and others are coming from.First off I'm no expert.I'll let others labor under and carry that beast of a mantle. Yes I like a long pedigree.My polyanna side.But I've been around the block and know a little about the game.

We can post genetics 101 all we want to here but until breeders concentrate on several chapters of that book it is doomed to failure.

First chapter : Picking the breeding stock for a possible mating.Chapter Two culling.Chapter three the human aspect behind the why and what are we breeding for.
( the most important imo ).

There have been breeders that got it right for a few generations - periods of time only to have the wheels come off in future generations.Why? The why is always embedded in one of those three chapters.

How do they fix it? Many times it is impossible to go back and pick up that genetic trait within a family of dogs as the "well" is dead.Now what? Man being what he is looks around and harvests what he needs in genetic material to try to put it back in his bloodline.

To Bev's and Alswamper point of view and to complicate matters even more man no longer just breeds for a hunting partner to just take to the woods.Nope.He is breeding to win ribbons and trophies.He breeds for things like extra mouth.Why? He wants to produce a mouthy dog that will get credit for claiming checks before his brain tells him his nose is actually smelling rabbit scent. This helps the dog win and that trait becomes dominate and passed along to Bev's and Alswamper's and my dismay as rabbit hunters first. darn right I can understand their frustation.I share it.

Same with mouthy coon dogs that strike off the tailgate.You know the type that babbles until an honest hound finds game and opens. But the idiot get the points.He wins hunts and is bred.Same with the loss of hunt in many lines of beagles.That is a man made fault born out of convenience and time constraints chasing ribbons.

What I'm saying is this.We will never have genetically superior much less genetically sound dogs that breed true in any great numbers.Why? Because most of the humans that breed them are so genetically defective for the most part.

As I stated before a Good Beagle should be able to win any format given honest humans.Thank goodness for the few breeders of the past and present that do remain true and breed good all around hounds.I respect those that state wait a minute.This is BS and dare to try a different path.With out them new hunters would have nothing of value to start with muchless hunt with.
          Hunt6 (David P)

Pretty down-to-earth, basic stuff that shows a very good understanding of what's really going on within the breed today.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sun May 18, 2003 9:47 pm

hunt6 you may not be a guru but you seem pretty informed about hounds. Good luck!

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Mon May 19, 2003 12:36 pm

Bob, Shetler's Sonny Boy was out of Taylor's Sonny Boy and Uhl's Nancy, both of whom were single registered (like most early Treeing Walkers). Taylor's Sonny Boy had 1/8 Redbone in him. Uhl's Nancy had a registered Walker dam and a Bluetick sire. Shetler's Sonny Boy did throw some good, cold nosed coon dogs, wish he was around today.
Hunt6, Tennesee Lead was a black and tan colored fox hound, he looked like the July foxhounds that were popular in that day. That was before the Black and Tan coonhound came along. You do bring up a good point, the coonhound breeds were seperated by color back in the 50's even though they shared some of the same ancestors. Hard Time Speck was litter registered a Treeing Walker and made a Grand Nite Champion. He was then single registered as an English because of his color and made a Grand Nite Champion again and won the world hunt. He became one of the best reproducers in the modern English breed.
The beagle breed never went down that road, all the different colors of beagles have been registered under the same breed. That doesn't make them any closer related than two coonhounds from different breeds. An outcross is an outcross, it doesn't make much difference if the sire and dam are registered or not.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon May 19, 2003 1:04 pm

Thanks a lot TOM!!!!!

Jamie Rice · Post by **Jamie Rice** » Mon May 19, 2003 2:37 pm

Before we got into beagles, we ran some ole bluetick coonhounds with some Speck blood in them. Actually uncle owned direct son of Speck's at one time. We never competition hunted coonhounds or anything, but ole Patch put it on quite a few of those champ hounds. Sorry if I sound like I'm bragging, but Speck's name brings back some childhood memories of spending all night out in the hills treking to trees and listening to some mountain music. Should any of you guys wish to know what Speck looked like here's site with a picture and small pedigree on him.

http://members.fortunecity.com/stnick/speck.htm

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Mon May 19, 2003 4:45 pm

Shetler's Sonny Boy was out of Taylor's Sonny Boy and Uhl's Nancy, both of whom were single registered (like most early Treeing Walkers). Taylor's Sonny Boy had 1/8 Redbone in him. Uhl's Nancy had a registered Walker dam and a Bluetick sire. Shetler's Sonny Boy did throw some good, cold nosed coon dogs, wish he was around today.
Hunt6, Tennesee Lead was a black and tan colored fox hound, he looked like the July foxhounds that were popular in that day. That was before the Black and Tan coonhound came along. You do bring up a good point, the coonhound breeds were seperated by color back in the 50's even though they shared some of the same ancestors. Hard Time Speck was litter registered a Treeing Walker and made a Grand Nite Champion. He was then single registered as an English because of his color and made a Grand Nite Champion again and won the world hunt. He became one of the best reproducers in the modern English breed.
snip

Thanks Tom and Fuzz.Memory lane.I was at a coonhunt with my Dad outsie Austin Texas many many years ago.Walker man,a friend of my Dad's showed a paper like the ne on Sonny Boy and a few others.I just could not remember if it was rooted in redbone or bluetick and had not been on a search engine yet to find the info.All had redbone and bluetick in them.No big deal. Breeders of all stripes only went into denial many years - decades later:-)

Hardtime Speck ? Why yes.The English dogs my brothers and I had were Hardtime Speck / Boyds Little Joe (chop mouths that they were) and heavy in Erwin Massengells,SP, Neuse River Dooley.Erwin lived just down the road.Dooley was as good a tree dog as I ever went into the woods with and I've followed and owned some good ones.

I've also had those black muzzle Redbones off Max Hunter's Timber Chopper and his son that Foot's Rogers in VA. owned named Timber Popper.Sorry for the walk down memory lane beagle people but darn they were some fine hounds...Back to beagles.....
Hunt6 (David P)

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Mon May 19, 2003 6:46 pm

bev if you truly have an outstanding grade dog breed it . register pups ukc arha or keep records on a grocery bag. i have 7 grade beagles in my yard. no akc registered. ive tried off and on over last 30 years to get into akc registered beagles. dogs are culled here with no favoritism for registered dogs. ill never say that grade dogs are better. ill only say the best ones that came in my possesion were grades. i have the same situation with treeing walkers. in that case ive had good enough registered dogs to make the effort to keep them registered. only one grade walker . hunt 6 im 46 and i never remember when treeing walkers didnt tree as well as other breeds. i do remember tree dogs were harder to find than now. in all breeds. i remember going to hunts and almost as many grade dogs as registered. . pete

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Mon May 19, 2003 8:53 pm

hunt 6 im 46 and i never remember when treeing walkers didnt tree as well as other breeds. i do remember tree dogs were harder to find than now. in all breeds. i remember going to hunts and almost as many grade dogs as registered. . pete
snip

Yep I remember those hunts as well.You been to any oldtime hunts where they had mules jumping the fence contests? Coon in a log and water races...

The only point I was trying to make is that oldtime breeders harvested genes when and where they found them.Dad use to run oldtime blueticks that he and his Dad and brothers had bred for years.Dad and I as a kid - and young man hunted with a lot of buddies that were Walker men.Good friends.

The blueticks we had were nothing like what you seen now.Had snow white undercoat with very moderate ticking with black patches and rich tan trim.They consistently ran and more importantly treed ahead and held the tree in front of those walkers arond our area.In short a lot of those bluetick genes were harvested and put in walker
bitches.

Just like the bluetick - redbone - english men havested what they needed from walkers etc etc.They all boiled out of the same english pot.Walkers have been used and still are to put foot and power on the trialing end of things.Bet on it ! That is all I was saying.
Hunt6 (David)

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:29 am

i never went to any mule contests but used to have some mules. used then coon hunting , fishing , they arent real practical where i live now but loved them in southern vt where the ground is drier and woods more open. . i agree with you about all hounds crossed up a little. thats how we got them. ive heard hounds crossed with pointer , bull dogs , terrriers, as well as other breeds of hounds. some of best hounds ever were single registered i dont think a single registered dog ever hurt the breed. i use some running walker and treeing walker crosses sometimes. . i like them alot. i think they cross well cause they are the same breed just different strains. . anyways . one thing ive seen in big hounds is how the compettition hunts or trials affect the breed. . so many havent seen the importance of this. for instance when i first went to coon hunts strike and tree points were equal and it was a three hour hunt. they changed it to a two hour hunt and more points for first tree. this had a huge impact on the breed. dogs tree lots of time now before anything climbs the tree. the cold nose track dog is almost extinct. i can remember using rope bags and really fooling with pups hoping i could get some to tree. now thats the last thing ill worry about. when i first got into foxhounds. never heard of a trial or running in a pen. dogs were level headed and had good noses. now the average foxhound or running hound is a hot nosed idiot. . beaglers need to pay attention to this. . the foxhunters have used pen running and large pack trials to breed a dog that has unreal speed. no nose and very little brains. i know they all arent like this but a very high % ... they have done this in just a few years. .. i dont know alot about beagle trials but if trials dont select for the best gun dogs than all beaglers need to come up with away that changes them so they do. . the trials have a huge impact on the breed. it can be good or bad depending on what kind of dog is winning these trials. if its the same dog thats your first choice to take hunting in the winter than trials are a good thing. if not change the rules. pete

snowshoehareguide · Post by **snowshoehareguide** » Tue May 20, 2003 9:58 am

david i dug out some old papers and its only about 10-12 generations from pups in my yard to urls nancy and taylors sonny boy. we get some with that real cherry red head. might be coming from that redbone. there are some stubborn pukes and i know thats from the blutic.

pete

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Tue May 20, 2003 10:07 am

they changed it to a two hour hunt and more points for first tree. this had a huge impact on the breed. dogs tree lots of time now before anything climbs the tree. the cold nose track dog is almost extinct. i can remember using rope bags and really fooling with pups hoping i could get some to tree. now thats the last thing ill worry about. when i first got into foxhounds. never heard of a trial or running in a pen. dogs were level headed and had good noses. now the average foxhound or running hound is a hot nosed idiot. . beaglers need to pay attention to this. . the foxhunters have used pen running and large pack trials to breed a dog that has unreal speed. no nose and very little brains. i know they all arent like this but a very high % ... they have done this in just a few years. .. i dont know alot about beagle trials but if trials dont select for the best gun dogs than all beaglers need to come up with away that changes them so they do. . the trials have a huge impact on the breed. it can be good or bad depending on what kind of dog is winning these trials. if its the same dog thats your first choice to take hunting in the winter than trials are a good thing. if not change the rules. pete snip

In spades.I call em treeing idiots.Remember when a "Good One" would use a good locating bark then circle the tree checking to see if the tree was marked.If not go back on it and hammer it until you got there?? Checking the tree has been bred out mostly.

As to picking pups do,,,Go hunt with a breeders dogs in the wild.
GO to a LOT of field trials.Do not hang around the club house.Hump it through the grounds with every cast.See what and who is doing what.You will sweat a lot but you will see a lot !! Ain't no mystery if you have been around good hounds before.There are some good dogs in the trials and some mouthy me too idiots.

I'd rather have a good all around bred pup and not waste my time on pups breed to take advantage of things in a field trail setting.
Hunt6 (David P.)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 20, 2003 11:42 am

The American Beagler Forum

Pedigrees - How to use them and how far back?

bev

hunt 6

more coon hounds.