inbreeding ???

[swing]

I will just add one for now.
My favorite-GR/R/Ch Tk's Round Mountain Jake ( Half Brother , Half Sister cross )

[mybeagles]

Never heard of him, was he a good one? Did he produce well?

[NorWester]

Those are all good questions Mybeagles. How do you know when to inbreed? Thats actually easy to answer, by breeding best to best!! Confused? The sire and dam in my previous example that I used to produce the two keepers one of which was arguably the best dog I ever bred, were mother and son. They also happened to be the two best dogs I had and two of the best I knew of at that time. I had a pretty good hunch I would get what I was after as the mother who I was inbreeding on was nicely linebred her self from a line known for inbreeding with good results. Now on to the results with your bitch. This stuff fascinates me as inbreeding ultimately reveals the "truth", it shows you the strengths and the weakness in the line you are utilizing. The sire and dam of the sorry litter you produced were half brother and half sister, if Im reading that right? You doubled up on the grandsire and got crap. Think about that for a second........by doing that breeding you got to see the "man behind the curtain" ......you found out that doubling up on grandpa was a waste of time. Its like having a look in the well and discovering the water dont run very deep. I would be very hesitant to linebreed on that particular stud much less inbreed off him again. It showed you the traits that made him are NOT prepotent and now one certainly has to consider the possibility that perhaps its the bitches on the bottom half each dogs pedigree that are the real strength behind your bitch and the stud you bred her to. One also has to consider that perhaps it was just bad luck. The combination of traits just didnt go your way and you rolled "snake eyes". I'll give you a very interesting example and you can tell me what you think. I knew of a fellow who was very influential in the dogs I was involved with at the time and he had been breeding "his" strain for a number of years and was quite confident in his ability to predict the results of each breeding he would make long before it was actually made and more often than not......he was right. He had a pair of dogs that were fairly close bred and was very confident that he could make a key inbreeding that would provide foundation blood for his strain for generations to come, so he did in fact make that breeding. To his surprise and shock .........he didnt get what he was after. Determined he made the breeding again with the same results. Undetered as he KNEW the traits he was after were in there somewhere he again made the very same breeding and finally did get ONE dog he was happy with. This particular dog became the foundation of a number of strains and to this day it is difficult to find a dog that didnt have this individual somewhere in their background so prepotent was his producing ability. As to your last question, how close is considered inbreeding vs linebreeding .....and this I find somewhat amusing considering what the general consensus is, but if you were to show a real honest to goodness geneticist a pedigree on pretty well any dog you have he would consider him inbred......as the dog or dogs constistantly trace back to a same individuals and do so without having to go to far back. Generally speaking linebreeding is like cousin to cousin, great grandsire to great grand niece.......stuff of that nature. Father daughter, mother son, brother, sister or half brother, half sister are considerably closer.

[mybeagles]

The grandsire in question with my pups was IFC Ranger Dan....arguably the top producing sire ever....I have heard however that inbreeding with him doesnt work real well....Thats tough to understand......too much of good thing

The example you give shows incredible determination, I choose another word for it, but none the less it sounds like he got what he was looking for.
Curious what trait he was breeding so hard for.....What made other pups so bad, was the 1 good one a great hound or great producer? thanks

[steve]

John you need to go back and read very very carfully what it is I wrote on all my posts then come back and tell me you think you know what it is I'm doing and I'll tell you your wrong,I didn't say and if I did I corrected myself for doing it that inbreeding is the only way to breed dogs you for one with the years you have would have more experience with this but maybe not.
Now for some fat for all to chew on as was printed in the 1954 September issue by A.D. Holcombe as he interviewed Lon Watson on the famous Yellow Creek dogs and this is word for word.Not my words.
I long since concluded that a strain of hounds is only as good as their breeder is houndwise.If a man has bred a strain for many generations and has incorperated into it all traits and characteristics he feels good hounds should posses, one can draw certain conclusions. Among them is that only that particular man can carry on the strain and maintain the quality, since his hounds represent his capability and his ideas of what a hound should be. And conversely, that a man is as wise in the ways of hounds as the records of his hounds indicate-- not so much from what they do in field trials ( though that is a consideration ), but mostly from how solidly they stand behind the hounds that follow them. In other words, did they run well, reproduce well, and were they potent enough to carry themselves into further generations?
Now back to john if you have read my stuff you might see that I don't just inbreed.
I have some traits here that I intend to keep if with all your great experience with breeding you have a key for me to keep what it is I know I have in my dogs cough it up otherwise how can you know that my inbreeding methods are gonna fall apart you say all these faults come to the surface well then so be it.At least I'll know what I'm working with and I doubt I'll end up with walkie talkie dogs as I didn't start with crooked deformed idiots for dogs and by MY tight breedings if there are problems at least I'll find them and CULL them hard.John you ask to see the stats on all the good inbreedings well show me all the good stats on the outcross breedings and how many don't make it you sir have no leg to stand on just as many outcross dog don't every make it so what's your point.Have I claimed a high percent of my dogs make it cause I inbreed NO if that's how you read it then your read inbetween the lines what it is you think I said.I just made 2 inbred crosses and chances are thinks might not turn out,1 is father daughter,1 double father daughter,now can you or anyone on here tell me for absolutly what it is that I will get from this and if so if it's gonna be junk I'll go out and kill them now.And if I should end up with something that works do you think I should share this product with you or others?And if it fails should I just QUIT and never breed dogs again as for fear I may fail again.IF every person that ever bred anything dogs, cats, horses, ect. ect. was to of QUIT what is it that we would have today for anything that is able for us to breed plants to bees to animals do you think when you go to the store and the pork chop you buy is the product of inbreeding that it's different and that it should be given to you cause it's inbred and not worth anything or same goes for the chicken you eat.Why is it such narrow minded people think they know things whan they don't have a clue.All I know is I'm tired of this post and trying to explain what can't be done so PLEASE try to leave my name out of any examples cause knowbody but myself knows what my agenda is and that's how I want to keep it.Steve

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Excellent post!

When do you inbreed? When you have perfection.
When do you linebreed? When you are close to perfection.
When do you out cross?? When you need to add something to the line.
Inbreeding REVEALS the hidden traits ie: My Beagles cross showed shyness etc.
Ranger Dan was from an outcross. When Dan is doubled up, you are involving the gene pools of several hounds, when he himself may have resembled a common ancestor, now we include everyone.
Inbred dogs are not always competition material, but they are breeding material. When an inbred dog is out crossed, you get "heterosis" hybrid vigor. These are the competition hounds! ie: Branko's Alibaba etc.
I think i would line breed for a generation or two before i even tried inbreeding. Why? To shrink down my gene pool slowly and find the best hounds. Quite often the best in the litter belong to friends and neighbors that i gave pups to! Then if the hounds that i have after linebreeding are no better than the original hounds, i wouldn't inbreed, i would outcross and then maybe go back to the line. Sorry hounds are never bred or kenneled for that matter! The hounds performance dictates how you should or could breed.
Check out "Line bred Producers" in the American Beagler and Rabbit Hunter Magazines, May issues.

"Can't we all just get along" Rodney King

Lone Pine Beagles

[Alabama John]

This is the type talking that is done here on porches drinking an RC and eating a moon pie!
Hope no one ever gets upset, that was never the intention at all.

Steve
I wish you the best in your breeding and experience with beagles. Breeding and seeing what we get is as much of the fun as running and hunting them.
If you get the chance to come down here and hunt, let me know, you'll enjoy yourself. I like to see what others are doing.
Had Yellow Creeks and knew them. Have some dogs now that have that blood.

NorWester
I think we are not far apart at all when it is all said and done. You're an honest man!
One thing I have tried to do that I never see posted is when I see a dog or have one myself that sure impresses me, rather than trying to inbreed to get its traits, I try to find its sire and dam and try to get the owners to breed them again, get a number of pups or the whole litter to find another of like kind. Seems easier.
Interestingly, I had a friends of mine recently telling us about a little dog (he knows we don't like little dogs) he has seen at a trial that impressed him so and he were saying we would sure like him down here on our big rabbits in the water, describing his running.
Had a funny name "Viagra" From what they said, I would sure feed him inbred, outcross, or linebreed or bred from a housecat!

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Guys,

Disregard my previous mention of Alibaba being outcrossed. After seeing his ped on world pedigrees he is line bred. All four grand parents have Anna'a Ann.

have a good sunday,
Lone Pine Beagles

[Bev]

Another reason one might consider inbreeding is if a particular hound is diminishing in availability. I owned 2 GrRch Goose Creek Sam daughters (still have the one). Goose Creek Sam was inducted into ARHA Little Pack's reproducing Hall of Fame with a whopping total of 7 breedings. (He died fairly young.) How many hounds can do that? Almost everything Sam put on the ground was even better than himself, and made Champion/Grand Champion in both field and show, not to mention what excellent gundogs they were.

I went searching for a Goose Creek Sam bred male to consider some linebreeding to, and guess what? Few males from that bloodline around. Almost all females. I would take a mother to her son in this case... without hesitation.

I've been told by some long-timers that the great HOF IFC Mt. Zion Pete was one such hound that could be inbred back to himself and consistently crank out as good and better than himself. Certainly not all great hounds can do this, but he could. I can't think of anyone who would object to some Mt. Zion Pete in his/her hounds.

John, you ever run with any of Kenny Hill's dogs?

I know I posted this on the Dingus thread, but I will post it again because some of you may not have been in that thread. All of you who are participating in this inbreeding thread, take a gander at this pedigree, and read about the dog. I cannot take credit for his breeding, but I am proud as punch to own him. Would I take him to someone in his own family? At this point, NO... I personally wouldn't. It's not needed. Would I take him to a bitch who is linebred from a different family? You betcha, and I intend to do just that.

http://www.geocities.com/freedomrunbeagles/ozzie.html

[NorWester]

Mybeagles, Ive also heard that there hasnt been good things coming from linebred or inbred Ranger Dan. To me all that means is that there are bones in the closet so to speak, perhaps a whole skeleton in there somewhere. Breeding history is littered with examples like Ranger Dan, outstanding representatives of their breed but never produced worth a darn or only with a certain combination. John, I think you're right and we're not that far apart when all is said and done and I'll also say I dont think alot of us posting here are really that far apart. Sometimes with the typed or written word it is difficult to convey intent, emotion etc. and its easy to misinterpret commentary. I will say that we differ a little as per your comment on when you find one that really impresses you .......you breed to his sire, obviously using the rational that the sire is already a proven producer having thrown the one that impressed. Solid basis and logic, and I would do the same using dogs Im not too familiar with. With my own dogs I look at it this way........when I breed I look to improve with each generation, not just maintain. Once a stud or bitch of mine has produced the kind of dog Im after ( a better dog).....Im not likely to utilize them much afterward. I will breed their better offspring and continue on likewise in a effort to be progressive. If the offspring cant produce like the old man, then I dont want them and now I start questioning the old man because he cant produce a producer........if that makes any sense. In the end, like we've already discussed, it all boils down to SELECTION and the style or method of breeding used is really an after thought and incidental. When breedings go bad be it inbred/scatter bred or whatever and you ask an honest breeder what went wrong he/she will invariably answer back with ........"bred the wrong dog" Despite all the complicated jargon it really is that simple.

[Alabama John]

NorWester
Good post and I agree completely.
Wish we didn't have to use computers, you are right, too many misunderstandings. Be much better if we could all discuss sitting on the porch of the old country store here, while drinking an RC and munching on a moon pie. Then go run some dogs. I'll bet we could agree or disagree, but ultimately make some great friends.

Bev
Yes, I know the Hills. Great folks.

[mybeagles]

I understand your SELECTION concept, I guess what I dont see is all the dogs that qualify for selection to inbreeding......I run with an awful lot of people, judge as often as I can and I just dont see that many awsome dogs, let alone one person having two. Where do you guys hide all these dogs that can hardly be improved on..... Not to be funny, but if one of you on here has two related dogs that good, please give me the opportunity to see them go. I would be curious to hear your ideas of what you would hope for or expect the cross to create!

Ive only seen 1 hound that Ive run with much that didnt seem to have any faults. I assume when inbreeding you know what minor faults a line has and cull any hounds that show signs of that fault?

[NorWester]

Mybeagles, thats certainly a topic of debate all in itself. Which dogs qualify for inbreeding would depend on the standard set by the one doing the breeding. John used an excellent example with the brace dogs, the breeders isolated a specific trait and bred for it.......in the end it was successful. They may have some spooky ugly dogs........but they walk the line working the track like they are designed to do. Are those dogs worthy of inbreeding to you or John or me or Steve??........not likely but they were for the fellows that were interested in perpetuating those traits. If I was to undertake an extensive, intensive program like I did in the past its highly unlikely my candidate for inbreeding would be yours and vice versa. Its all relative to what you're after. Where I am I would try to single out hunting desire and nose power. Things that you may consider important like speed, so called proper use of mouth etc.......are secondary to me. This is how "family" breeding or linebreeding/inbreeding got started in the first place. You mentioned you are attempting to put together a strain of your own. Your "family" of dogs will be bred around the traits and characteristics set by YOUR own standard. This is also the root of the reason why folks favor "family" breeding......a group of dogs collectively selected and bred for the same traits using the same standard. It makes forth coming results predictable, whereas out crossing to another family becomes unpredictable do to the fact one is breeding to the collective family bred traits of someone elses standards, the results of which are less predictable and often unfavorable. Interesting to note that with the advent of travel being made easier for everyone within the last 50 to 80 years, less emphasis has been placed on "family" breeding because we can now ship a dog anywhere or fly anywhere to buy a dog. In the past family breeding was the rule .......you had no choice, even if you knew of other dogs out of county, state, province or country you had no means of access to them. You had what you had and bred around your "family".

[bullboy]

i have had the pleasure to see linebreeding at it's best and worse in the last 30 years my uncle is one of the oldest german wirewire breeders in the country and i don't remember the last time he has bred out of kennel it has to be atleast 25 years culling and years of devotion is what it takes.i beleve in linebreeding but not inbreeding from what i have witnessed brother sister mother son farther daughter no no's at this point you will see significant health traits after several gen of breeding like this.when i went to reg beagles from grades i researched linebred pedigrees and bought some heavy line bred pups out of two kennels none of them are here any longer.genetic markering is a way to cut the percentages but i have never heard of it being done along with ai breeding and that isen't getting done also as for the top producting dogs in several years are all past before we know they were that good and who says there that good a trial record or prodigy that are placing or championing because believe me there is and was alot of fc and trial hounds that i woulden't give a 22 bullet for after seeing them run for one reason or another

[smithbros.1]

Mybeagles: The best female you speak of (& she is the best d--- gun dog around) breeding has ben bred 4 times. She has only produced one time, When she was bred into a line bred line She had 3 pups, all three are rabbit dogs! Both males in the litter are very nice. Be glad to show them to you.

The other 3 crosses were to out-crossed (males) & they produced nothing!

Just some food for thought.
The best dog around bred 4 times & only produced when bred to a line bred male???? I think you need all breeing practices to be a successful breeder! & I think line breeding is one of the best breedings to make.

I think it is like all debates in life....the answer always lies somewhere in the middle......take care J