inbreeding ???

[cabin fever]

mybeagles you may be correct but I would think the number of outcrosses made to the number of inbred and linebred crosses would also be much higher and I would be willing to bet if all things were equal and based on percentages linebreeding would win hands down. I don't know this for a fact and don't have a clue on percentages just my thought. I think it would be interesting to start a new post listing champions out of out crosses verses champions out of line and inbred dogs and see what kind of numbers we come up with.

Dave

[cabin fever]

Greg H You are correct Ali-baba was the son of Double Ann who was the result of a father X daughter cross (Conman X Pretty Pebbles) To me that is some pretty tight breeding. Double Anne was also the Dam of Silvertone Belle which was the dam Of Maravic's Blue Jean and Maravic's Blue Barry again to me this is some tight breeding and proof that inbreeding and line breeding can work.

Dave

[mybeagles]

That is a good point Greg that has been brought out in the past about inbred dogs producing some good ones.....But who has the kennel space to keep a whole litter of pups, and then breed that whole litter to find out who MIGHT BE a producer? Obviously the Branko's and the 50+ dog kennels can, and they receive their praises for all their hard work, but the average beagler doesnt keep over 4-8. By the looks at some of the dogs some guys trial, some are content with the below average hounds that get produced....Some so kennel blind I actually feel sorry for them.....

The other question of ethics is pawning off pups of an inbred cross....Any sensible person wouldnt charge, and after informing a new potential owner of the possible need to cull the dog, it would be hard to give them away.

Im sure Ill be corrected, but it seems to me its an attempt at taking a shortcut to success......Trying to get to the finish line without running the race.....fine until you get caught. Ive heard about guys destroying a line of dogs they had worked hard to create because they found out too late in the game, their stain couldnt handle the stresses of inbreeding. I go through 8-10 dogs a year in search of a great one....the 1-2 that I end up with at the end of the year make some hunter real happy owning dogs that have more time on ground than they could put on in a life time...

I hear people talk about the consistantcy with inbreeding.....I have found best to best bred pups to nearly all be at least average with an exceptional one tossed in here and there.....What are guys referring to when they talk about consistancy? Im assuming consistantly average, as Ive never seen a line of dogs consistantly great.....?

[mybeagles]

We did this a while back, and the outcrossed dogs topped nearly everyone's list.....Wouldnt it be nice though if AKC could do something productive with our money and produce information like that!!!!! Seems to me with the computer technology out there someone is going to clear that up for us......

Dave, I would rather see a list of the inbred producers.....find out what they have in common.....I think its fair to say some bloodlines linebreed much better than others.....

[Greg H]

Dave,
You are correct Double Ann was a hell of a producing bitch. But, she only produced when new blood was introduced. Silvertone Belle was a sister in blood to Ali Baba. Double Ann couldn't produce anything when she was breed back close to a son of Ann's Ann. This is actually a good example of how inbreeding should be used. My guess, and its only a guess, is that she probably would have been culled in most kennels, but the Kyrpans obviously saw something they liked and the rest is history. She produced offspring that were better than her ancestors, but needed outcrossed or lightly linebreed to do it.

[steve]

So now that it is said that outcrossed dogs are better and winning at all the trials BIG DEAL if they can't reproduce in like or better then themselves what good are they. And from the 1954 mags I have of H @ H I can not see where anything about the brace type walkie talkie hounds where running yet the stories talk about brace dogs with speed and hunt from what I can tell and Alabama John In 20 years I'll be 63 and you can bet that these dogs I feed will still have the speed and hunt they have now or be dead,as I'm far from being kennel blind and not afraid to cull.

[NorWester]

The part of breeding that has amused me for 60 years is the self imposed stature of the breeders who inbreed and I am including those in the 40's and 50's as well as those today. They all said and say the same thing about those in the past and themselves.
It seems those that do inbreed are always smarter, more knowledgeable, and more ruthless in culling in their breeding than those of us common folks who make up the vast majority that do not inbreed beagles.
They perport to know some big breeding secret that the rest of us do not know or understand.
I saw it then and read it now. When the subject came up, the inbreeders would roll their eyes, look at you sideways and declare that YOU "really have to know what you are doing and cull hard". Of course that meant them and that they knew.

I have never known the big inbreeding secret, asked many for it and never known anyone else that knew it. It's amusing and a joke!

If they did know something special they must not have practiced it as their dogs sure didn't show the superiority from inbreeding. I have run with those dogs off and on for over 60 years that were products of so called superior inbreeding and the most respected knowledgable hard cullers and wondered why if they believe in culling so, why they didn't cull the ones I saw.
Believe me, if their dogs showed the stuff I wanted more than any others, I would be a converted believer and have their inbred dogs in my pen.

Challenge:
Take the top 50 dogs in any trial format except brace, identify the Inbred and the Outcross-Best to Best dogs and see who is superior and what breeding is beating who.

John , if you wanted to know the secret all you had to do is ask Keep this to yourself will ya, Ive already mentioned it but the rest of these guys probably won't get it........so I'll just tell you....................the secret is......SELECTION.....shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I dont want this private message to get out.

[NorWester]

The part of breeding that has amused me for 60 years is the self imposed stature of the breeders who inbreed and I am including those in the 40's and 50's as well as those today. They all said and say the same thing about those in the past and themselves.
It seems those that do inbreed are always smarter, more knowledgeable, and more ruthless in culling in their breeding than those of us common folks who make up the vast majority that do not inbreed beagles.
They perport to know some big breeding secret that the rest of us do not know or understand.
I saw it then and read it now. When the subject came up, the inbreeders would roll their eyes, look at you sideways and declare that YOU "really have to know what you are doing and cull hard". Of course that meant them and that they knew.

I have never known the big inbreeding secret, asked many for it and never known anyone else that knew it. It's amusing and a joke!

If they did know something special they must not have practiced it as their dogs sure didn't show the superiority from inbreeding. I have run with those dogs off and on for over 60 years that were products of so called superior inbreeding and the most respected knowledgable hard cullers and wondered why if they believe in culling so, why they didn't cull the ones I saw.
Believe me, if their dogs showed the stuff I wanted more than any others, I would be a converted believer and have their inbred dogs in my pen.

Challenge:
Take the top 50 dogs in any trial format except brace, identify the Inbred and the Outcross-Best to Best dogs and see who is superior and what breeding is beating who.

John , if you wanted to know the secret all you had to do is ask Keep this to yourself will ya, Ive already mentioned it but the rest of these guys probably won't get it........so I'll just tell you....................the secret is......SELECTION.....shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I dont want this private message to get out.

Ooooooooooops, this aint a private message. darn.....now the secret is out

[NorWester]

That is a good point Greg that has been brought out in the past about inbred dogs producing some good ones.....But who has the kennel space to keep a whole litter of pups, and then breed that whole litter to find out who MIGHT BE a producer? Obviously the Branko's and the 50+ dog kennels can, and they receive their praises for all their hard work, but the average beagler doesnt keep over 4-8. By the looks at some of the dogs some guys trial, some are content with the below average hounds that get produced....Some so kennel blind I actually feel sorry for them.....

The other question of ethics is pawning off pups of an inbred cross....Any sensible person wouldnt charge, and after informing a new potential owner of the possible need to cull the dog, it would be hard to give them away.

Im sure Ill be corrected, but it seems to me its an attempt at taking a shortcut to success......Trying to get to the finish line without running the race.....fine until you get caught. Ive heard about guys destroying a line of dogs they had worked hard to create because they found out too late in the game, their stain couldnt handle the stresses of inbreeding. I go through 8-10 dogs a year in search of a great one....the 1-2 that I end up with at the end of the year make some hunter real happy owning dogs that have more time on ground than they could put on in a life time...

I hear people talk about the consistantcy with inbreeding.....I have found best to best bred pups to nearly all be at least average with an exceptional one tossed in here and there.....What are guys referring to when they talk about consistancy? Im assuming consistantly average, as Ive never seen a line of dogs consistantly great.....?

Mybeagles.......again you're confusing cause and effect here. Just because you cant or dont keep enough dogs to do a breeding method justice.......dont knock the method. Hate the game not the playa, dawg As to the ethics of pawning off inbred dogs on unsupecting customers.........pleassssssse....... Im bettin there are way more substandard outcrossed dogs pawned off out there in need of culling than there are inbred ones! Short cut to success???.......if it works it works and it does........its just that simple. How do you think the best race horses came to be, the best cattle, the best chickens??????.........virtually ANY successful breeding program today utilizes inbreeding, linebreeding and every other method at their disposal to get the job done. WHY DONT YOU ??????

[Alabama John]

NorWester
WE agree. Selection is the key to any breeding program.
Because we do not inbreed doesn't mean we do not spend alot of time making beat to best select breedings.
Good to hear from you.

Steve
I hope I am around to hear about your breding program in 20 years. I have seen many Steves and none have stayed with inbreeding but one or two generations.

There will for sure be some inbred exceptions that will turn out good from inbreeding, but by far most do not.
There will also be some Beagle and Cocker Spaniel crosses that will make good rabbit dogs, but most will not.

That's why you hear the Battle Cry all through this thread from the inbreeders that now has come back to bite them in the butt "you must cull hard" Why? Because so many more inbred dogs turn out sorry and with defects you can't live with. If you say, most of my pups turn out good, then you are not "culling hard". It is a two edged sword you have created.

I never hear folks ask or Inbreeders advertise this very important question:
Of the famous dogs listed, how many pups were in each of their litters and how many were culled and for what trait or traits were they culled? What was the percentages of good to culled? That would be the same percentage of good or sorry you could expect if you bought a pup from that breeding. Just my luck, the inbred pup I bought would take after the ones that were culled, not the good exception. The percentages would not be in your favor.

Did these dogs listed win all their trials? Of Course not. Who beat them and what was their breeding method is my point.

The first trait I and folks around here recognize in inbred dogs is they are shy and the more you inbreed them, the shyer and more nervous they get. Shyness equates to gunshyness and man shyness so you have to walk off aways from your hunting buddies to catch your wild acting dog.

That alone warrants culling and ending that line of beagles blood.

[NorWester]

Hey John......good to hear from you too You are right of course in agreeing with me about selection being THE KEY. Refresh my memory if you will but I dont recall anyone taking issue with the statement that you spend a lot of time making best to best select breedings, and I dont see why you wouldnt be successful either. Here's something else Im gonna agree with you on, you stated, "That's why you hear the Battle Cry all through this thread from the inbreeders that now has come back to bite them in the butt "you must cull hard" Why? Because so many more inbred dogs turn out sorry and with defects you can't live with" ..........Yes.....thats right I pretty much agree with that statement. I have had more inbred dogs fail to pass my grade than some of the other breedings Ive done. Ok.........lets soak this in for a minute and think about it some. I think the last inbred breeding I made I culled all but 2 dogs out of a litter of 9 I believe. Hold on now..........before everyone goes for my jugular with their fangs and claws extended, let me finish. All but 2 were culled and on the surface it doesnt appear to be a high percentage manouver, but looks can be deceiving however as the 2 that did pan out, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh........they were special. The kind of dog that made the effort worth the hassle and here's the kicker......one of the two produced himself or better ........ESPECIALLY when bred to OUT CROSSED bitches that until that point had not produced anything of note........with other OUTCROSSED studs. As to percentages and statistics........thats a double edged sword there. Some guys claim 90 % or better make the grade, some claim even more, then again some guys will feed anything and the bar isnt raised very high in order to make the grade

[Greg H]

NorWester your signing my song. I think a diversified breeding program will get you further ahead than any narrow approach. As I have said, Inbreeding has its place as a tool. I think a breeder has to use the Building a house Analogy. You can't cut boards with a hammer but you can't drive nails with a saw. Tools. Outcrossing, linebreeding and Inbreeding are all tools to be used in the right situation. Knowing when to use each tool is the Key. A few people have accomplished this.

I feel the same way as mybeagle does about the inbreeders getting on this or any board saying that it is the secret to having and improving their dogs. They are either not being honest or they have not yet run into the brick wall that is in front of them. A lot of new or young beaglers read these forums for information and if they take some of this stuff and put it to use they won't enjoy beagling very long.

[mybeagles]

I think Im glad you shared that with us, but its still sinking in.....you caught me between two different feeling

How do you know when its time to inbreed? What is the exact result your hoping for? Improvment/stabilize/change?

Why inbreeding over linebreeding?

[Greg H]

Mybeagles, your guess is as good as mine. If I knew all the "WHENS" you all would be talking about the Greg H Bloodlines.

The best advice is when you get that dog of a life time and you want to lock his traits in place, Inbreed him to his best daughter. And then go back to breeding to dogs that you think will better your blood.

Most of us don't know what we want in a hound until we see it in a hound. When I see this I research the pedigree's to see if I can pick up on a trend. One trend is more often than not 1 inbreeding somewhere in 5 generation. Not always but often enough to sit up and take notice. Linebreeding seems to be more of a maintenance or preservation of a bloodline than a outcross or inbreeding.

Personally I don't like to destroy something that my family has grown attached to. My wife and boys would never forgive me. That being said I have to be VERY SELECTIVE when breeding or buying dogs.

[mybeagles]

I had what I and others consider a top female hound. Made the cross with one of the top males in country, same sire as female, and ended up with pathetic litter of pups. Spooky, non rabbit running fools. Neither the sire nor the dam have produced such a sorry litter since.

When considering inbreeding or linebreeding what signs do you look for in a hound that would make you opt out of making the cross.....Do you guys determine if a bitch is a "producer" prior to inbreeding her?

How close is considered inbreeding vs linebreeding.....Ive always considered same hound inside of 3 generation inbreeding.