How is it a Bell used as a cheatin' locater device? UKC rule

[Jarocal]

I'm not saying mishandling is a huge problem, but I have seen handlers go into time out to get their dogs. On rule change I think would be good for that is when the judge says leash the hounds a time out is autmatically in effect and they do only have a certain amount of time to get their hound leashed and back to the judge. This would preserve the actual hunting time and alleviate handlers shaving time off the clock by taking their time to get the hound.

I really don't see how allowing the bell would be any better for identifying slick handlers calling a similar voiced dog on strike unless that dog is apart from the others. If the slick handlers dog comes out on line with or not far behind a dog with the bell it still would not prove that it was the dog with the bell that struck. The only way to absolutely eliminate that would be to combine a bark collar with a tracking system instead of a shock and give the judge the receiver, then when a handler calls strike the judge can see which of the dogs were sounding. Not as cheap as a bell, it would definitely incur higher costs onto the clubs running events to have enough systems for each cast, but would allow for identification and tracking with systems not provided by the handler and less likely to be tampered with. I personally wouldn't care if they allowed bells, but I do think it would make for sloppier handling/training not better dogs.

[MDH68]

Todd, tell me if I am reading this correctly. A slick handler as you say, struck your dog as his to gain an advantage in strike points. Then warned himself for striking the wrong dog. If this is the case, at this point his dog is not on the card as being struck in. The strike positions would then change accordingly. If his dog has barked 4 or more times and not struck in once you discover he struck incorrectly have the dog scratched.If he has barked 3 times or less he must strike in or take a chance the dog will not bark a fourth and be scratched. If you are out on a cast of more than 2 dogs and these so called slick handlers are cheating. Call for a vote.It will be you and the other cast members against him. If it is happening as you say,he should be outvoted.

Mike

[Todd Eddington]

That case happened at a WQE and one dog was already withdrew and at his truck leavein' three dogs in cast. At the end of the hunt my dog was winnin by 15pts. (low scorein' day) one dog wasn't much comp, on his way to minusin' out. the other was a 7month old pup from the judge/guide/ and my ride back to the clubhouse. the dog about ready to minus out opened as soon as it was turned loose as though it was seein' the bunny. mine was under a overgrowth in the area of the dog that just opened when she wimpered once. the judge struck in his dog in place of mine so since i knew that it was my dog that wimpered (in which she had all first strikes all day,)I figured i might as well strick mine in last. then my dog checked the dog openin' and the judge and me saw what the deal was that nothing was gonna happen the judge decided to do his thing and withdraw his strike? The other guy was his bud, so vote on what? Did he know the rules better than me? maybe..OR would you call it a cheat win? since you dont like slick handler>>

[MDH68]

Did you let him keep his strike points? Did his dog at any time open more than three times? Was your dog and the other dog struck in?

[Todd Eddington]

YES, HE STRUCK IN SECOND PLACE WITH HIS YOUNG PUP AND THAT LEFT ONLY THIRD TO STRIKE IN AT. SO YES, HE WOULD HAVE HAD SECOND STRIKE IF THE TRACK WOULD HAVE GONE ANYWHERE. TRUTH IS HE JUST GOT DONE SAYIN' THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO OUTSTRIKE MY DOG AND GAVE HER PRAISES ON HOW HARD OF A SEARCH DOG SHE IS AND HOW HARD IT IS TO FIND A DOG WITH HER ABILITY TO JUMP A BUNNY? HE EVEN SAID THAT HIS DOG COULDN'T OUT STRIKE HER. HE DID EVERYTHING BUT SHAKE MY HAND BEFORE THIS HAPPENED. THE DOG THAT WAS IN TROUBLE BARKED FOR 2 MINUTES OR SO JUST AS IT HAD A TRACK GOING. MY DOG WIMPERED ONCE (CAUSE SHE WAS IN THICK COVER TRIING TO GET TO THE DOG STRUCK IN.) I'M NOT FOR SURE IF HIS DOG WAS WIMPERIN' ALSO OR NOT BUT HE STRUCK HIS IN ONLY BECAUSE THE POINT BETWEEN 1ST-2ND STIKE IS 25PTS. AND IF THE BUNNY WAS SEEN AND HOLED WITH NO LINE SCORED,WELL YOU KNOW. I COULD DEAL WITH THAT BUT TO WITHDRAW THE DOGS STRIKE POINTS.? THIS GUY WAS THE CLUB OFFICIAL. THE OTHER DOG AND MINE ATE 50-. BUT NOT THE PUP BECAUSE OF HIS CALL. DIDN'T THINK OF IT TILL I WAS HALF WAY HOME. I THINK OF IT AS ANOTHER LESSON LEARNED AFTER 16 YEARS. THATS A GOOD ONE. GUESS WE NEVER STOP LEARNIN, AND THE ONES TO REMEMBER IS THE ONES LEARNED THE HARD WAY. MAYBE A BELL WOULDN'T HAVE HELPED ALOT IN THIS CASE BUT SURE COULDN'T HURT.

[MDH68]

Todd
I have done just what you said "thought about it on the way home". Especially when I was first learning the rules. My very first hunt my dog struck first then was joined by the other 2. It was a hot day and the scenting wasnt that good. My dog was keeping the track going. Not burning it up by any means but keeping it going. The other two dogs who were struck in left the track. They eventually got another rabbit going and were running it. The judge left my dog and went to his to score it. I was watching my dog and the rabbit came by. I said to the judge hey the rabbit just came by me. I was so green I didnt know enough to yell line or even how the situation was to be handled. Judge said we have to score these dogs first because there the majority. He called a line on his dogs and scored them. Him and the other handler were walking towards me and I hollered there goes the rabbit again. He said we gotta pick your dog up and get the dogs together on another rabbit. On the way home I was thinking about the situation and thought I had read in the rules that it should have been done differently.When I got home and looked in my rule book Sure enough judge should have stayed with my dog to try and score. The other 2 dogs should have been minused for leaving track. He should have come over and scored my dog when I saw the rabbit the first time and even the second time. There were several other occasions when I first started and didnt know the rules that things werent handled properly. Not all were guys taking advantage of me. A lot were the judge and cast didnt know the rules well enough either. In all these situation If I had known the rules I could have stuck up for my dog. In my opinion those situations were just as much my fault as it was the rest of the casts and judge. If you call for a vote on a particular situation and get out voted because of the buddy system than yeah thats a raw deal. But if you know the rules well and put the judge in place he wont ever try that stuff again with you on another cast. The systems not perfect and it sucks some guys will try to get an edge. But its trialing and you know going into it that some things are going to go against you. Heck you know a lot of cast winners certainly arent the best dog in the cast. They just got the breaks that day. But if you have a good hound it will get its due.

Mike

[Todd Eddington]

like i said, we never stop learnin'..sometimes the hard way..I remember my first UKC trial hunt also. I had some good guys teach me what was to be done politly. I wasn't much compition cause I was just learnin'. I beleive that it was 1990 and my cast members was Don Sexton with his Pastey dog, Todd Kellem with his Crocket dog and Rudy LaPoint. I remember sittin' in the back of a pickup with Todd Kellem talkin' about dogs. The dogs did some great work that day and I beleive Don Sexton won our cast but the main thing is that my dog Rock and I had a great time and loved the format.