inbreeding ???

ricky murphy · Post by **ricky murphy** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:38 pm

i bred my male to one of his 2 yr old daughters im wanting dogs that r copies of my male has any one ever done this an what was the results

JAW · Post by **JAW** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:55 am

I think that's great if the male is a solid hound with very very few faults.Inbreeding is a good way to clean up your line but,you must not be kennel blind or your efforts will be in vain.Before you ever think of breeding the offspring of this cross you'd better but them under the microscope and cull hard.Let several of your friends or a person that field trials/runs a different type hound look them over because they can spot a flaw(s) quick.Then see if you can continuously see the flaw(s)they tell you about while looking pass that good mouth or those pretty looks and make a accurate assessment on the hounds abilities.Inbreeding is a good tool that many old beaglers used to produce the hounds we have today. Many will talk down on inbreeding until you show them what you've got.Many will like your hound(s)until you show them the pedigree and believe it or not they will find fault in your hound because of the breeding tool you used.John

Shady Grove Beagles · Post by **Shady Grove Beagles** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:01 am

Not a thing in the world wrong with breeding a daughter back to her sire-----as long as both of them are outstanding in ALL of the traits / charecteristics that your hoping to see in the pups they'll reproduce. And I would suggest that if possible that you keep and train out the whole litter to see what you've got.Be hard and cull out the ones that are not up to par [I don't mean you have to kill them as they could make a hunting dog or pet for someone else but not for breeding stock ]
You stand about an equal chance of getting a top hound with just what your looking for or falling far short of the mark and getting some pups that are not worth fooling with. Inbeeding is not for the faint of heart but don't let that stop you. When it works you will have a dog with the genetic background to breed alot truer than most can for the traits you want. And if it doesn't? You'll be no further behind the 8 ball then alot of guys that breed this one to that one with out giving as much thought about it as you are. Good luck.

ricky murphy · Post by **ricky murphy** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:43 am

the reason i bred these 2 bitches back to thier father is he is the smartest hound i ever seen,he will an has hunt for days until he s near death,the only quit in him is when his body stops functioning,he mouths only when moving the line,he s been cleaning up old dog mistakes in front of old men since he was 10 months old

PLATEAUBEAGLER · Post by **PLATEAUBEAGLER** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:13 pm

i don't think it would hurt a thing, as long as you know both dogs traits are solid and what you want, like was said, keep the hole litter and cull hard as they progress,if nothing else you are no further behind than you are now.

I'm considering doing the same thing,but i'm watching the female that i plan on crossing back to her father very close.

She is only 5 1/2 months old right now and burning up the bunnies, but i will give her this summer and one gun season before i make my decision to do this cross to prove herself.

If not i will see how my other pup turns out and i may go that way with the cross, to reproduce my male dog i like so well.

TheBman · Post by **TheBman** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:31 pm

I would say it could be a good thing if they are similar in ability and traits...if they have flaws, and they have the same flaw, it will be intensified if it is shown by both dogs. Just my experience and my opinion.

I agree about keeping the entire litter, cull hard...you might get lucky.

Brent

coyote hunter · Post by **coyote hunter** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:01 am

I think a person should ask themselves what the # of good compared to bad people have got from inbreeding????more crap than good for sure.What about you do get a good one and than linebreeds it and that is just enough of a gene pool to make it go sour???and you have to cull it all or do ya and maybe you give it to a kid as a pet no big deal but it ends up breed and the putps are sold ???and on goes the cycle of junk.Why would one even think that way with all the great studs out their?How much since would it make to have a child with your own mother????I think it is alot of stress on her female having a liter knowing that you may have to cull them all.Don't personally make since to me .Dan

steve · Post by **steve** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:36 am

Before anyone shoot their mouth off like coyote hunter or who ever they should be, type in ( inbreeding or breeding methods ) or what have you go on Google search and read as much as possible or better yet get some books from some of the late great guys the bred dogs before us to see that they all inbred to get great results you guys that post here and don't know squat are IDIOTS if you haven't tried it don't worry about the few of us who are doing it.Why is it when guys post here for information the want a bees all sound off when in fact they where not asked their opion on the matter you guys know who you are and from past experience you guys with nothing to contribute are in fact ignorant and have nothing useful to add to these posts so don't read them,and let the rest of us enjoy learning from each other on these subjects.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:48 pm

It may seem as though these threads just lead to arguments, but I think if you can dig through the hostility some good points get raised.....For those of you that support inbreeding, what is your ultimate goal? What is your expectation from the immedite offspring? How many that inbreed can honestly say they keep enough hounds for several generations to reap the proposed benefits of the trait locks?

For the sake of easier reading, lets keep the slander and anger to a minimun, and focus on reasons/rationale.....

cabin fever · Post by **cabin fever** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:07 pm

Well said Steve. I would like to know how many father daughter crosses or inbreedings coyote hunter and others who think like him have seen. How many total out crosses have you seen to great studs that turned out to be crap. In my opinion there are a lot more beagles out there that I would consider crap than there are above average ones regardless of the breeding. If it were easy to make a cross that produced well above average dogs there would be more of them and we would all have them. I would be willing to bet that for every inbred litter out there that turned out to be crap there are dozens of litters out there from great studs that also turned out to be crap. With any litter the breeder should be prepared to cull hard regardless of weather it is an inbreeding or a total out cross to a great stud dog if the pups turn out to be crap they shouldn't be bred. Everyone has an opinion on what they think works and don't work with breeding but if your opinion is based on one or two litters or the fact that it is immoral for humans to inbreed then you probably are an idiot.

Dave

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:51 pm

Dave, basing your opinions on what you have seen, or know to be the case with other species, reguarless of how limited your experience, does not make you an idiot.........ignoring what you have seen, or pretending what you see is not real qualifies you for ignorance!!

This argument is totally based on expectations and percieved success....I have a close friend thats retired and spends many hours a day developing a kennel of 25-30 hounds. He has made numerous inbred crosses, line bred crosses, as well as outcrosses. He is very happy with the results of a FEW of his inbreedings, very unhappy with some, and indifferent with others. From what I have seen of his inbreeding, I wouldnt own any of the offspring. However, as long as he's happy with his results and feels he is accomplishing what he set out for, I think thats all that really matters.....Im contemplating whether or not all the different ideas in breeding dont ultimately make things better for everyone in the sport.

Ron Conroe · Post by **Ron Conroe** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:41 pm

to cabin fever and steve,sounds like you to have been inbreeding with each other, lots of hostility with you to IDIOTS.

cabin fever · Post by **cabin fever** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:14 pm

Ron Conroe, No hostility on part. What about you?

mybeagles I agree this shouldn't be an argument but a discussion. When people post on here and want to know others opinions on inbreeding I think what their looking for is results from people with experience not weather or not they think it is morally right or not. This is why I read the posts on the subject, If one of my females turns out to be well above average and I decide to breed her I want to know what my best chance of success would be, inbreed, linebreed or a total outcross. This subject has come up on here several times and it only gets heated when people against inbreeding don't have anything to add to the post except to say it's just wrong or would you want to breed to your daughter? Well, no I wouldn't nor would I want to breed to any female that has flees, rolls in dead stuff and licks it's own butt. but that has nothing to do with breeding dogs.

Mybeagles what quality would you consider your friends dogs and what about the results from his line breedings and out crosses would you own any of those? The point to my previous post was that you can't have an educated opinion based on one litter of pups. I have seen a few inbreedings that produced some good hounds but I haven't seen enough to know weather your odds are better or not and like hearing from others that have tried it and what kind of results the got. I have seen a lot of out crosses to good stud dogs that produced what I would call crap.

Dave

P.S. Ron I don't even know Steve so I pretty sure we're not related. Now do you have anything intelligent to say?

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:07 pm

Dave, he started out with an excellent bitch directly out of well known male Im guessing 10 years ago to start his kennel. He bred her to well known male (outcross)and kept two males. Both very solid dogs, a little faster than female, but a little rougher. All other traits, hunt, brains, desire very good.
Then he bred the best male back to mother(inbred). 4 pups, 2 were 11" tall, both parents 12 3/4" - 13" dogs. One pup very simple, had to be culled. Other 3 average, none as good as parents.
Next time he outcrossed to local male that was very good. 5/6 made solid rabbit dogs, 1 of that 5 outstanding, 1/6 never would run a rabbit more than 50 feet.
You guessed it, next cross was a littermate cross(inbreed) again 6 pups with 2 only 11". None of the pups matched the ability of parents.
I believe at last count he has made 6 inbred crosses, and 20 or so outcross/line bred.
He feels only 2 of the 140 or so pups have exceeded the ability of original bitch. One was outcross, one was Uncle/neice......He states he had better luck with littermate cross than father/daughter or Mother/son.....But uncle/neice seems to work the best out of close breeding. He is still close linebreeding/outcrossing but the dogs ears keep getting shorter and he has to breed to 15" males to get 13" dogs........I dont like to criticize him but often do when the 11" terrier looking beagles dump out of the box. Neither one of us take offense to it, so its all done in fun!! His pups are very predictable starting, mouth, hunt, nose, trash free, but he doesnt seem to be improving his kennel any (my opinion). He feels the predictability is what he was looking for. Others of us are looking for the dog of a life time, I enjoy the search and the unknown...........

Lone Pine Beagles · Post by **Lone Pine Beagles** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:05 pm

Go to http://www.worldpedigrees.com

You will want a 5 gen. pedigree for Dom's Dougie.

Study it.

Dougie's parents were 15/16 related!!!!!

I believe that would be inbred?

Dougie was probably the most influential hound in the NMHA.
He and his kin produced!

Inbreeding CAN work if careful selection is practiced,
Lone Pine Beagles