Agression-PLEASE HELP.
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
I forgot to add this for hubby: If I got rid of every hound in my kennel that ever ran deer and kept only those that had never run deer, I'd only have about 2 dogs instead of 17. Most folks have to break their hounds off deer at some point. But, that another form of aggression - and another whole topic.
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bob huffman
You have trained Sammy to be possesive of you around his kennel mates. It goes something like this: AS a dog Sammy is always trying differant behaviors to fill his needs. At some point he acted aggresive when his kennelmates came close to you because he wants your attention and knows if the others come to you, you will give them the attention instead of him. Its the same as 2 dogs that always get along until you throw a bone to them and then they fight over it. When Sammy showed his mild aggression, he should have been been ignored by you or mildly punished. In such a case, most novice trainers of house dogs will instead, reward the dog unconciously by sweet talking them or trying to calm them down with petting etc. A reward is anything the dog likes. Petting. sweet talking, food, water, letting outside, scratching or giving a favorite toy are all examples of rewards. Without realizing it, you can teach your dog to bite your mother in law. Mother in law comes to the door. Dog barks. Try to calm dog " easy boy, there now boy-- now he growls a little because he is being rewarded by your sweet talking---when he growls you calm him some more by petting him--- now the hair stands up on his back and you really start trying to calm him down--- BAM he nails her. He is doing what he is taught. You must become very aware of how and when you are rewarding your dog. In your case it is learned behavior because the dog was normal when younger. He is doing what he has been rewarded for. Dogs don't do behaviors unless it is genetic or reinforced. His aggression is also being compounded by his competition with the other male in the pen. Seperate them. You are setting him up to fail. Start rewarding submissive behaviors. When he is laying down, reward him. When you act a little aggresive toward him and he turns sideways or acts submissive, reward him. Don't pass out the rewards with all the dogs present until you have trained them in submissiveness. Ignore or punish his aggressive behaviors and reward his submissive behaviors one step at a time if need be. Shape his behaviors and slowly introduce the other dogs being aware of what Bev has discussed about pack order. You must be the dominant pack member and you must never falter. Sammy is a little insecure also because he realizes that you are weak as a leader and he is confused about his role. Just like a child, he needs boundries to feel secure. When a child or a dog realizes they can outsmart the parents or leaders, they lose their boundries and start acting out. Make no mistake, they will always push on the boundries because they are getting there adult mind and are just trying it out on you first. Be firm, unemotional and consistant. Consistant fair boundries go hand in hand with security and your dogs mental well being as a cooperating pack member. Good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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bob huffman
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bob huffman
Squirt gun is great idea as dogs hate having water sprayed on them. Rolled up newspaper is good as it sounds bad but don't hurt bad. Hit yourself with it and you will see this. I myself use a short buggy whip as it gets the point acroos on the rare occasion I need it and it also make a swishing sound that the dogs learn quickly. It also can reach out and touch someone so I don't have to be right next to th dog to correct them. The dog that is growling at the child needs strict correction. He could be too aggressive by nature for a young person and may need a new home. Mildly aggressive dogs can become much worse in the presence of a child because of pack social structure. Good luck!
O.K., now I'm confused. I feel as though I'm being told two different things.
On one hand, from what Bev says, I'm thinking that I need to make Sammy feel like #1 while his kennelmates are around. When he does growl, I thought I was supposed to hush him in a low voice and shoo the others away. I pet him for reassurance, then shoo him away as well to show him that I am ultimately the most dominant. I thought dominance was rewarded in dominant dogs and submissiveness rewarded in submissive dogs, that way, when my back is turned, one isn't beating up the other.
Mr. Huffman, I feel I may be getting totally opposite advice from you. You say to punish the dominant traits in Sammy in order to make him more submissive. However, what Bev has said makes sense to me, considering dogs have evolved from wolves and many of the same inherent characteristics are still present in dogs today.
I see what you are saying about rewarding his growls by talking sweetly to him, and this makes a bit of sense as well. However, if Sammy's rightful place is at the head of the pack (after me, of course,) then aren't I disrupting what is supposed to happen anyway? If I reward all dogs for being submissive, haven't I changed what has been happening in pack animals for centuries? If there is supposed to be an Alpha, Beta, Omega, etc., and I punish Sammy for trying to take over the Alpha spot (which he would most likely be able to do) haven't I confused the dogs and the natural order of things? If the other dogs are o.k. with being submissive as long as they know their place, why is it wrong for Sammy to be the Alpha?
I do not want to sound angry, but as of now, I am very confused.
I just want to do the right thing for everyone: Sammy, myself, and the other dogs in the pen. I want every dog to feel as though he is in the right place on the social ladder in the pen.
Any thoughts from anyone are greatly appreciated.
On one hand, from what Bev says, I'm thinking that I need to make Sammy feel like #1 while his kennelmates are around. When he does growl, I thought I was supposed to hush him in a low voice and shoo the others away. I pet him for reassurance, then shoo him away as well to show him that I am ultimately the most dominant. I thought dominance was rewarded in dominant dogs and submissiveness rewarded in submissive dogs, that way, when my back is turned, one isn't beating up the other.
Mr. Huffman, I feel I may be getting totally opposite advice from you. You say to punish the dominant traits in Sammy in order to make him more submissive. However, what Bev has said makes sense to me, considering dogs have evolved from wolves and many of the same inherent characteristics are still present in dogs today.
I see what you are saying about rewarding his growls by talking sweetly to him, and this makes a bit of sense as well. However, if Sammy's rightful place is at the head of the pack (after me, of course,) then aren't I disrupting what is supposed to happen anyway? If I reward all dogs for being submissive, haven't I changed what has been happening in pack animals for centuries? If there is supposed to be an Alpha, Beta, Omega, etc., and I punish Sammy for trying to take over the Alpha spot (which he would most likely be able to do) haven't I confused the dogs and the natural order of things? If the other dogs are o.k. with being submissive as long as they know their place, why is it wrong for Sammy to be the Alpha?
I do not want to sound angry, but as of now, I am very confused.
I just want to do the right thing for everyone: Sammy, myself, and the other dogs in the pen. I want every dog to feel as though he is in the right place on the social ladder in the pen.
Any thoughts from anyone are greatly appreciated.
Happiness is owning a beagle...or seven.
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bob huffman
Bob and I weren't that far apart - we were just using different scenarios. Bob is correct when he says we can teach or encourage aggressions of certain natures. If there's a payoff for the dog each time he acts aggressively, he will continue to do so. You inadvertantly rewarded Sammy when he growled at your hubby and you allowed him top spot (next to you) for the rest of the day. Sometimes the payoff is needed - especially as I mentioned before, when dogs must live together for periods of time unattended by Alpha Supreme (you). You will have to reward both aggressive behavior and submissive behavior so natural order can be established and obeyed in your absence. Payoff is a big no-no when the dog challenges mother-in-law, or any other human - to all of whom the dog needs to practice subdominance.
One thing to remember about children; dogs that have not been raised around children as young puppies do not consider them humans right away. Children smell different, their outline is different, and they move in quick, jerky fashion compared to adults. To dogs, body language is everything. So is outline and form. Ever see a dog that knows you well act fearful or aggressive if you put on a big, funny hat? Changing outline and adding height is also the purpose of raising hackles. Status can be determined among a pack of dogs without a single growl. Give dogs the benefit of the doubt here, and teach children (no matter how young) not to bother or approach dogs unless you KNOW they are socialized to children. Even then don't let a child swat at a dog, lunge at one, try to ride one (like a pony - BIG mistake) pull ears, tails, or otherwise run roughshod over a dog. If you want a fear-biter, this is the quickest way to get one. I have swatted my grandson more than once for this. He was too young to reason with, but all he needed to know was that I wouldn't allow that. Now that he's 5, I can tell him why. Warming his britches a few times back then will probably save him a bite in the face later.
Back to my scenario: I was using an example of times when you're out in the kennel among all the dogs. We let all 17 of our hounds loose together in the same yard every night - to socialize, roll in the grass, play chase, associate with us, etc. Out of our 17 dogs, 10 of them are males. The opportunity for competition, possessiveness, rough play that escalates to squabbles is great. My big thing is observing pack dynamics. Although some of the purer behaviors have been dulled through domestication, it's easy to see that most have made it through the centuries intact. Not a night goes by we don't have at least 6 backs haired up, teeth bared, the proverbial "stand-off", etc. Most of these happen in an instant and are over before one could intervene. I will not intervene (even in a small squabble) unless I feel like the situation won't resolve itself without serious damage. That's just my way of dealing with many males. Others may not have the stomach to do this, but I feel they will learn more from each other most of the time. They don't behave this way when off this property as new dogs, new territory, they use caution.
Often times, as these males become juveniles, they will use me or Ralph to establish their rank against the others. The old boys are over it and usually ignore their behavior - it's usually the 1.5 to 3-year-olds. Whe we see one becoming dominant (usually exhibited through this possessive/competitve behavior) we need to do 2 things:
1. Remind dominant dog that we are Alpha Supreme
2. Reassure dominant dog in front of kennels mates that we support his position among his kennel mates
Imagine if you will, sitting in the Adirondack chairs in my back yard. Dog A (who we've already identified to be emerging as a dominant) approaches and stands up on my knees for petting and some attention, dogs B and C want in on the action and also approach and try to push into the way. Dog A immediately hairs up, growls and shows teeth:
1. Grab Dog A's collar and low growly voice yourself tell him to knock it off (you are establishing your own dominancy and have him by a dominant hold)
2. Shoo the other dogs away still holding onto Dog A (this shows you support his dominancy over them by keeping him close to you and recognizing he doesn't want the competition at this moment and you will abide to that much) It also teaches the others, they must wait their turn to avoid trouble - not a bad thing.
3. Continue to pet Dog A for a moment to reinforce #2, then shoo him away, teaching him that ultimately you still call the shots. Some of my most aggressive males will flop to the ground and belly up if I approach.
All of this can occur in a matter of 20 seconds. It is necessary that you really know your dogs.
I had mentioned in an earlier post that we have 17 hounds and 14 separate kennels in use. If you have the extra space available, Bob is also correct in his suggestion to separate the males from each other. In the yard and about the property here, the males are allowed to "peck it out" under supervision, but good sense tells me that within my own males - the sheer numbers of them, and the ever-changing hormonal stages of the juveniles, I don't put them in that position 24/7. It also cuts down on food fights to separate their living quarters. We will only co-kennel two males if they have a wide gap in social order. (example: 4 month-old male with an 8-year-old guy) Years of observing pack dynamics also tells me that something as simple as a food fight or tug-of-war over a stick - even among the best of friends, can escalate into an all-out frenzy if one of them gets stupid and decides not to back down. In the wild, the stupid dog would be killed and/or banished, and the pack won't miss him. Such is the way of dogs. These hounds are our investments and we don't want that ultimate end so we use common sense and put some barriers up to prevent such tragedy.
One last comment this post on aggression. The word aggression is widely misunderstood in the doggy world. All aggression is not bad, and aggression does not equal viciousness. When talking of dogs, aggression more often then not means "assertion" - quite different than downright viciousness.
One thing to remember about children; dogs that have not been raised around children as young puppies do not consider them humans right away. Children smell different, their outline is different, and they move in quick, jerky fashion compared to adults. To dogs, body language is everything. So is outline and form. Ever see a dog that knows you well act fearful or aggressive if you put on a big, funny hat? Changing outline and adding height is also the purpose of raising hackles. Status can be determined among a pack of dogs without a single growl. Give dogs the benefit of the doubt here, and teach children (no matter how young) not to bother or approach dogs unless you KNOW they are socialized to children. Even then don't let a child swat at a dog, lunge at one, try to ride one (like a pony - BIG mistake) pull ears, tails, or otherwise run roughshod over a dog. If you want a fear-biter, this is the quickest way to get one. I have swatted my grandson more than once for this. He was too young to reason with, but all he needed to know was that I wouldn't allow that. Now that he's 5, I can tell him why. Warming his britches a few times back then will probably save him a bite in the face later.
Back to my scenario: I was using an example of times when you're out in the kennel among all the dogs. We let all 17 of our hounds loose together in the same yard every night - to socialize, roll in the grass, play chase, associate with us, etc. Out of our 17 dogs, 10 of them are males. The opportunity for competition, possessiveness, rough play that escalates to squabbles is great. My big thing is observing pack dynamics. Although some of the purer behaviors have been dulled through domestication, it's easy to see that most have made it through the centuries intact. Not a night goes by we don't have at least 6 backs haired up, teeth bared, the proverbial "stand-off", etc. Most of these happen in an instant and are over before one could intervene. I will not intervene (even in a small squabble) unless I feel like the situation won't resolve itself without serious damage. That's just my way of dealing with many males. Others may not have the stomach to do this, but I feel they will learn more from each other most of the time. They don't behave this way when off this property as new dogs, new territory, they use caution.
Often times, as these males become juveniles, they will use me or Ralph to establish their rank against the others. The old boys are over it and usually ignore their behavior - it's usually the 1.5 to 3-year-olds. Whe we see one becoming dominant (usually exhibited through this possessive/competitve behavior) we need to do 2 things:
1. Remind dominant dog that we are Alpha Supreme
2. Reassure dominant dog in front of kennels mates that we support his position among his kennel mates
Imagine if you will, sitting in the Adirondack chairs in my back yard. Dog A (who we've already identified to be emerging as a dominant) approaches and stands up on my knees for petting and some attention, dogs B and C want in on the action and also approach and try to push into the way. Dog A immediately hairs up, growls and shows teeth:
1. Grab Dog A's collar and low growly voice yourself tell him to knock it off (you are establishing your own dominancy and have him by a dominant hold)
2. Shoo the other dogs away still holding onto Dog A (this shows you support his dominancy over them by keeping him close to you and recognizing he doesn't want the competition at this moment and you will abide to that much) It also teaches the others, they must wait their turn to avoid trouble - not a bad thing.
3. Continue to pet Dog A for a moment to reinforce #2, then shoo him away, teaching him that ultimately you still call the shots. Some of my most aggressive males will flop to the ground and belly up if I approach.
All of this can occur in a matter of 20 seconds. It is necessary that you really know your dogs.
I had mentioned in an earlier post that we have 17 hounds and 14 separate kennels in use. If you have the extra space available, Bob is also correct in his suggestion to separate the males from each other. In the yard and about the property here, the males are allowed to "peck it out" under supervision, but good sense tells me that within my own males - the sheer numbers of them, and the ever-changing hormonal stages of the juveniles, I don't put them in that position 24/7. It also cuts down on food fights to separate their living quarters. We will only co-kennel two males if they have a wide gap in social order. (example: 4 month-old male with an 8-year-old guy) Years of observing pack dynamics also tells me that something as simple as a food fight or tug-of-war over a stick - even among the best of friends, can escalate into an all-out frenzy if one of them gets stupid and decides not to back down. In the wild, the stupid dog would be killed and/or banished, and the pack won't miss him. Such is the way of dogs. These hounds are our investments and we don't want that ultimate end so we use common sense and put some barriers up to prevent such tragedy.
One last comment this post on aggression. The word aggression is widely misunderstood in the doggy world. All aggression is not bad, and aggression does not equal viciousness. When talking of dogs, aggression more often then not means "assertion" - quite different than downright viciousness.
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bob huffman
Great training advice!! Here is a situation to study over Bev!! I have a bitch in a dog box with 8 puppies 2 weeks old. All is well and going as planned but as I walked to my car this morning, I heard a little crying and the bitch rushed into the dog box. I thought maybe one pup was hung up or maybe had a toenail caught in the carpet on the box floor, but when I lifted the lid to see, one of my pregnant 6 toed cats had delivered 3 kittens in the box and was laying there looking at me. My cats sleep with my dogs in their outsude dog boxes. Last night we had severe weather. She had many places she could have had her kittens but chose the dog box with the puppies I think because of all the rain etc. She was laying on one side with a puppy at her breast and all 3 kittens were laying in the other corner still wet and not nursing. I scooped them up and brought all in the house and Dottie, the mother of the pups, just threw a fit. It was the kitten cry that she had rushed to, and now when she heard them crying as I took them out of the box, it freaked her out and she started howling and pacing in the pen. She got over it in about half hour but was very upset about the deal. Momma cat had 2 more in the house and all 5 have 6 toes on the front and 5 toes on the back. Alls well that ends well!!!!
Smart move Bob! If two friends can practically kill each other over a stick, imagine how these two could mix it up over babies, lol!
Probably shouldn't tell something so personal on myself, but sometimes we just can't help instinct. I nursed my second son. During that period of time if I was out in a store and heard another baby cry, my own milk would let down, lol! If I didn't have a jacket with me I'd have to leave the store.
Probably shouldn't tell something so personal on myself, but sometimes we just can't help instinct. I nursed my second son. During that period of time if I was out in a store and heard another baby cry, my own milk would let down, lol! If I didn't have a jacket with me I'd have to leave the store.