Father daughter crosses

[Randy Phipps]

I agree totally with what you just said Masons beagles, from what I seen in Robert Kemmer's kennels. I still can't understand why you don't see more of it in the beagling realm to get the consistency of a desired trait. As I stated before I am still new to this registered beagle experiece, but if it works with tree dogs why not with rabbit hounds. I have owned several outstanding grade dogs in my life time but the problem I kept hitting was the grade dogs I owned were never able to reproduce the desired traits I was looking for in their offspring. I finally wised up and decided to try registered dogs for a chance at some consistency. I currently own a couple of young Patch hounds and I do believe they are the best dogs I have had so far. I done some research before buying and found this strain has been around for decades, so I decided to try one, and then ended up with 2

[Rabbit Fever]

Blackdirt got it right, By doing this breeding you will not get deformed offspring he is on the mark .It wiil not magically appear out of the blue. What you are doing is breeding same traits that you like. If he didn't like these traits he would not consider it. Please dont make assumptions on this matter until you have done your homework. I have researched this topic for quite some time now and feel confident about what im saying. By no means am i a genetisist. I just breed hounds for my own pleasure. Listen to blackdirt he knows what he is talking about .

[blackdirt beagles]

Listen to blackdirt he knows what he is talking about .

i wouldnt go that far but i do know a little about "simple genetics". close breeding aint for everyone but if you are willing to do your part on the research and culling, i think its a great thing. as i said, i have not yet done a parent/offspring cross but when and if i find the right dogs, i would. in hindsight, i wish i would of bred one of my old males back to his mother when they were both alive and at my kennel. for what i want in a dog, those two were the closest i have seen and mostly due to the almightly public opinion , i did not make that cross and now regret it very much.

[Ron Conroe]

you guys are all nuts, show me one good father daughter cross. then show me all its accomplishments.

[Greg H]

Ron,
As Jimmie Abshire and I have been saying, you won't see alot of offspring be great from inbreeding. What they do is elevate your breeding program and take it to the next level. In most cases the offspring from your inbreds will thro those locked traits that you want and if you are selective in your breeding you can really see the results within the next 2 or 3 generations. I think if you are going to make a Parent/offspring cross you have to be willing to feed those dogs or have access to them until they are physically mature enough to breed. This is the only way you can propitate the retention of best blood.

Fuzz,
That is a slippery slope your on. Inbreeding to get the next great one within the first generation is a risky business at best. You may have already produced the foundation bitch of the 21st century and will never know it because she didn't hunt hard enough or wasn't fast enough for ya. You might want to keep close tabs on your culls just in case you let the reproducer of the century go. I truely wish you good luck in breeding.

[smithbros.1]

Rob, I owned a lab that was out of a father daughter cross. She was a very nice dog, perfectly healthy. She was a great house dog & a great bird dog! I shot a pile of roosters in front of her. She brought many years of happiness to my family & kids.
I don't think I would breed this close with line bred hounds. This is problably a bit close for myself. But I don't think line breeding is wrong. I'm also not one to come on here & tell people how to breed their hounds. Dogs are for the man that owns them to enjoy!
All my life we outcrossed & was never able to consistatly get hounds that matched their parents abilty. But I would also add that most great hounds come from outcrosses. I would like to hear about some of the sibilings of the great outcrosses. Just my 2 cents worth!

[mybeagles]

Brian, knowing your dogs extremely well will not tell you what genetic faults they will be predisposed to with inbreeing. That is where the problem is. Faults that would otherwise not come out, now surface.

I would like to see some of these hounds run, that some of you feel are worthy to be inbred. I constantly hear people say you have to know the dogs real well and make sure they dont have any faults. 25 years into beagling and 10 years of judging I have never seen a fault free hound. Its even harder to imagine having a father and daughter that are fault free. Any fault at all stands a high chance of being in father and daughter both. Not to mention the hidden faults awaiting an inbreed to manifest themselves.

All that said, if people choose to inbreed it doesnt bother me at all. I dont get upset, I do find it rather amusing though!!

[steve]

All I'll say is Robert it don't matter what anybody has done on this type of breeding cause it's not gonna help you the only one that will truely know the out come is you, now if you want to set back and say I should of or what if that's find or if you want to find out what's behind your dogs then go for it wide open and don't look back just learn from your experience.
I'll give you a small sample of what happened to me I bred a male from different stock to 1 of my females made the cross 2 times started breeding back into the line witrh tight linebreeding and inbreeding and I did this early, dogs where bred before fully proven and after about 5 yrs of wasted time I seen more bad traits surface then good ones and was able to cut that part of the arm off from my breeding program I still have 2 dogs left from some of that blood and am monitering them close for flaws.
The short of it is I was able to save myself from crashing by breeding this way and now I can redirect back to my original stock.So if you want to see what makes your dogs tick try it.Or wish you would of

[steve]

[tnbeagleman]

look at it this way genetically and figure it out for yourself. R=know what you have r= don't know nothing RxR=RR which is (know what you have , know what you have) rxr=rr which is (don't know nothing , don't know nothing) This will always remain constant, now herein lies the problems. Which ones of these habits good or faulty is going be the dominate gene. Now you can throw all those geneetic figures away they are now worthless unless you have already made this cross a bunch of times and kept very precise records. These can be in either line breeding outcrossing or inbreeding. There is only one for sure statement in breeding "It is a gamble until proven" But If you do not know both sire and dam and a little about their background the risk is greater of losing.. Thats my $.02 worth . I guess I just will have to throw my college genetics class out the window , those fruit flys breed a lot faster and have more offspring then beagles. LOL

[MasonsBeagles]

Truthfully diversity in everyones breeding programs will ultimately keep the beagle strong and well. It should never get to uniformity. There are no sure things. If there were then there wouldnt be as much junk out there from all the breeding strategies, including breeding only the best to the best.

[coyote hunter]

I personally am not againist it but do have to say it is not a line breeding its an in breeding there is a difference father ,daughter.Dan

[JCM]

Although I have only attempted a couple F/D crosses, I was not pleased with the results. It seems by line breeding, but not quite that close, we have had better overall success.

I choose a sire based on strong characteristics that I want to strengthen in the pups, rather than look for an outstanding individual. Time after time, I have seen the best results similar to what several have mentioned here--3/4 of a line. When at least 1/4 is an outcross, it seems that you maintain the hybrid vigor while strenthening characteristics of your line.

This also leaves a lot more options with generations down the line.

JCM

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Guys,

The product of Father X Daughter crosses usually doesn't produce highly competitive beagles. ie "hybrid vigor" that you get when outcrossing.
So if you run a highly aggressive format, there probably will not be very many inbred competition dogs. BUT for reproducing, the inbreds will produce their type.

I found one example of a Large Pack hound that was out of a Mother X Son cross. Larsen's Midnight Schnapps
Schnapps was out of Johnny Cash and Jim's Midnight Satin. Satin is Cash's mother. This dog competed and placed in the early 90's with one win in 1992.

Go to worldpedigrees.com and look at Townlines Johnny Paycheck.
WOW, he has multiple crosses of Tamarack Tiger. Tiger has multiple crosses of IFC Mt. Zion Pete! Very line bred with some inbreeding in the back.
Dom's Dougie was out of a 1/2 bro 1/2 sis cross. He produced Texas T and Ausable Schnapps. Texas T is out of two 1/2 bro 1/2 sis crossed parents!
What does this mean? Texas T had far fewer ancestors in his pedigree than the average dog. Therefore stamping his pups with his traits.

Check out Branko's Alibaba pedigree. How many times is Conman there?
You will see more tight crosses in the gundog beagles than the hare dogs because they want more control and less vigor.

Check out Flat Creek Josh (Wrights Shake), didn't he produce a dog named Tank?

I hate to break it to you guys but ALL beagles in america are related. Some more closely than others.

Selection is key, to each his own.
Lone Pine Beagles

[NorWester]

Lone Pine wrote,"I hate to break it to you guys but ALL beagles in america are related. Some more closely than others." ................................................that would be about right. In fact on a scientific level most geneticists would consider this all inbreeding and the effects of hybrid vigor would be minimal simply because there is never really much of an outcross. To get any hybrid vigor of note would probably take a cross to another breed of dog.