Father daughter crosses

[Tim H]

I am in the situation right now where I am boxed in. I have exactly what I want in a male. I have a female pup out of him that is doing a nice job and has impressed the heck out of me.

I'm not sure what you mean by being "boxed in", but I would not suggest inbreeding to someone who was coming at it from that position. Out of all the breeding options, this one should be carefully planned out and thought through.

Your post also suggests that you are very sure about the male, but still seem to have some reservation about the female. It seems, for you, the jury is still out on the female. Maybe, give the female more time until you can see that she is "exactly" what you want as well.

Those who are saying "you have nothing to lose" are gambling with someone elses money. Breeding is not like rolling dice and hoping for the best. Anytime you breed there are health risks to the Sire and the Dam and the litter, there are medical expenses and possible vet bills, shots, food and a bunch of other things that are involved with breeding, so you do have something to lose, including the possibility that further down the road when you've committed to the line from this breeding, something shows up that you didn't know about.

You asked for people who have done this breeding before. From 3 pages of this thread, I've only seen 1 person post that has done it and they didn't give any specifics about the breeding that would help you make a better decision. This should also suggest to you that not alot of people are willing to make such a breeding.

I would not suggest whether you should or should not inbreed, I would simply suggest that you think about it and learn about it as much as you can before you proceed.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

yes you need to keep the whole litter and cull ruthlessly (something most are unwilling to do). .

I just want to know WHY. What are the main reasons you need to keep the whole litter and why do you need to cull the puppies instead of placing them as pets? I have a puppy waiting list a mile long!! Not wanting to debate culling really....just interested in knowing the facts.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

Thanks fellas I really appricaiate the advice.

But this is not my first day owning dogs.

No matter what happens I will deal with it.

What I am looking for is first hand knowledge of father daughter crosses that have succeeded or failed.

I've drivin from massachusetts to mississippi looking at dogs.

I've got a pretty good idea of what my options are for an out cross.

[Tim H]

Honey Pot, When they say keep the whole litter, they mean until they are old enought to run rabbits and you can see what you have as far as ability to run rabbits. By keeping the whole litter you get to see everything that came out of that breeding and have a better foundation of knowledge to work from for the next breedings you do.

As far as culling rather than placing as pets. Sometimes when you breed this close, the genetic disorders that were not apparant before the breeding come out and are severe enough to make it necessary to cull, the health of the pup making it suffer would be one example.

[Greg H]

You may get lucky and get a hound that is everything you want and can reproduce those traits. This would be the exception tho. As I said earlier it is a great tool for accomplishing long term results. I think the best way to approach a breeding like this is to go in not expecting to copy your dogs in the first generation resulting from inbreeding. Often times the offspring from these sort of crosses will reproduce the desired traits you want but will not pocess them. You need to be looking several years down the road for the results you want.

Some other issues you have to be concerned about when inbreeding are Temperment, bone structure, bite, ear set and so on, because all of these things will be amplified in the offspring. You really have to have two individuals that are as close to perfect (in your eyes) as they can get.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

P.S. I have not had two hounds that were good enough for me to make this cross....... yet.

[Honey Pot Hounds]

Honey Pot, When they say keep the whole litter, they mean until they are old enought to run rabbits and you can see what you have as far as ability to run rabbits. By keeping the whole litter you get to see everything that came out of that breeding and have a better foundation of knowledge to work from for the next breedings you do.

As far as culling rather than placing as pets. Sometimes when you breed this close, the genetic disorders that were not apparant before the breeding come out and are severe enough to make it necessary to cull, the health of the pup making it suffer would be one example.

Thankyou Tim for your excellent answer and now I understand completely.

[Joeyman]

so you guys are saying that by crossing a father and daughter the pups sometimes come out deformed or messed up and that culling means to kill them as soon as they are born. What does culling mean

[Jamie Rice]

I recently made a father to daughter cross. Pups are currently five months old. There were no birth defects or abnormalities. The female had four pups, three of which I still own. While all had good conformation, there was red/white male I didn't like as good as the other three. Thus I sold him. Nevertheless he wasn't deformed by any means. All four pups were very intelligent and there was no spookiness about them.

First and foremost let me state that while I'm a firm believer in line breeding, this close of a cross wasn't my first choice. The male I'd intended on was a like a virgin on prom night when it come to breeding. He didn't have a clue. Next time if he doesn't act interested, I'll try AI instead. The second male I tried was not aggressive enough for her. Thus I went to male in same kennel, that being her father... Most will say I was desperate if I turned to a third choice. Far from it because fact of the matter the 13" male I bred her to I consider the best hands down in our area. At 7 1/2 years old I nor his owner would hestitate to drop him with any IFC, HBCH, etc. etc. Had he not been made an example of when it came to official measuring there's not a doubt in my mind he would've finished easily.

Furthermore while I knew I was taking a gamble by make a cross this close... I had a definite idea of the type of pup I should get, all bad things set aside. After four generations descending from the sire's mother... I have seen same traits in all four generations... great hunt and overwhelming desire, chop mouths, and many other positive traits.

With all this noted I can not and will not state these pups will turn out to be world beaters. I surely hope so, because the gamble I took will have paid off. As I stated above they're 5 months old. Like we did when starter pens wasn't around I have drug dead game in front of them. If they're desire to rip it into has anything to say, then I will say I am closer to a positive choice than negative. Since then my three were put in pup pen and showed overwhelming desire to investigate every crook and nanny and ran ole Mr. Cottontail with intent to kill him. Hopefully with a couple more times in the pen they'll be running by scent.

Culling means many things. To most it means ending the animals life.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

Fuzz your pay back with your females will show much better when and if you bred eiether down the stretch . Inbreeding is and should be for a rather serious breeder . Strong points is brood stock purpose. I guess people think the great one is why this is done . NOT TRUE. This should be done for brood stock and or stud purpose very seldom have i seen a great inbred dog , but his contributions if done right will pay off . Keep us posted on progress.

[Jamie Rice]

Jimmy... I'm sorry but I don't buy into the term brood bitch or brood stock. If they don't get it done in the field and under the gun I don't care how well they're bred or what their ancestors produced before them.... They don't get bred at my joint and they don't fed there either.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

Thats exactly the type of info I was looking for.



Thanks Fuzz.

If you get a chance let me know ho wthe pups turn out after you get them started.

[blackdirt beagles]

sorta off the topic here but...

inbreeding/linebreeding does NOT make up any faults or deformities or health problems etc. it may bring recessive genes out but it does not make something magically appear that is not already in the genes of the two dogs. that is why you need to know your line inside and out to breed close.

[Tim H]

Good point, blackdirt. I didn't clarify that in my posts but it is something that I should have pointed out.

[Randy Phipps]

I know my opinion may not mean much, but here goes. I helped Robert Kemmer alot in his Mtn. Cur kennel when I was younger. He started his own breed registry (KSBA) in 1992. What he done was started with foundation stock and started line breeding for desired traits. I would say the majority of Kemmer Stock Mtn. Curs will always trace back to one female Tn. Mtn. Blondie. This one female is the producer of the Blondie Line. I think if you look at the pups, grandpups, great grandpups and so forth you will see they all hunt and act very similar and have more squirrel or coon champions than any other line. You can still see pups being advertised today as being 7/8 Kemmer's Gold Nugget ,who was a son of Blondie. I am relatively new to registered beagles I have always owned and hunted grade beagles because I never ran across a registered one that suited me. The ones I tried were always what I would term walkie-talkies or brace dogs, and needless to say they never suited me I have often wandered why you never see more line bred beagles, or are they out there and no one is saying?

[MasonsBeagles]

bunny jumper,
i own a 3/4 trex female littermate to the blue bawls xdawg posted. I have witnessed several of the 3/4 crossess. Ive owned two out of Gracies litter and another 3/4 cross male. The trex litter turned out fairly nice. All three of the hounds in my opinion made above average rabbit hounds. The best thing about owning a 3/4 female is from what she has been bred you see alot of the same traits that she has being passed on. Not saying it is for everyone but I have yet to really any of the bad things people warn you about in any of the litters I have seen to date. The other 3/4 male I owned was actually a grade hound. He was a hard hitting hard hunting male that could flat fly on a rabbit track. I dont keep grade hounds anymore but he would have been the exception except in my infinite wisdom I heat stroked him out several times and it messed him up. I had the dog in good shape and took him out on extremely hot days and just ran him till he fell over. to say the least I learned an extrememly hard lesson. His littermates all turned out fairly well. Gabe Stockton owned one of them and his could flat roll. he met a early end due to a kennel accident. Know just from experience with just the few litters I have seen I do not believe it to be bad. I do not think that everyone should just do it. I think it should be done with select individuals. Especialy if you find a male that is producing extremely well and is getting on up in age. DO NOT JUST DO IT THINKING YOU ARE GOING TO HIT PAY DIRT. And have a plan before you do it. Like thinking two or three breedings down the road. Do not just keep making the same father daughter crossess as I would definately think that would not be a good plan. But doing it once to maintain a hounds influence should not be a problem.

I dont claim to be a breeding expert but if you have a hound that you think alot of today and you dont try to line breed that hound in just four generations you will have bred that hound out and diluted his influence tremendously.

When I stated that you have nothing to loose and everything to gain. I meant just that. When ever you do something you have got to take chances and go outside the box or you end up just going with the flow. That is not gambling with someone elses money I was just stating my opinion.

As always this is just my opinion, but a 3/4 cross is not all bad and you have more to gain than to loose.