Father daughter crosses

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:05 pm

Steve, what on earth does inbreeding have to do with judging. I dont look at the the dogs pedigree to decide to place the dog or not. I also dont really care if people inbreed or not. You can bring a 3 generation litter mate cross to the trials under me and if the dog does well enough he will win the trial.
Rob, (the original poster)is a friend of mine, so I take the liberty to give my opinion to him. I dont chase breeders around telling them what they can or cant do.
Again, beagling is a fun sport with millions of different theories. Take the ones you like and leave the rest. PLEASE dont take it so personal. I encourage all of you that inbreed to produce the dogs that will prove to us hardheaded outcrossers the perfect way!!!!! I admit I lack the patience to wade through it all.........

klrconcrete · Post by **klrconcrete** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:13 pm

I would have to say no to a father daughter cross - in my opinion this would constitute inbreeding not Linebreeding and I feel its too close for comfort. Kurt

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:21 pm

How have you been kurt? Havent talked to you in a while. I heard the hare populations were strong this year. Any super dogs in the works? May be looking for 15" bitch pup around Aug/Sep. Keep me in mind, Dave

MasonsBeagles · Post by **MasonsBeagles** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:43 pm

I say go for it. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain. It is interesting to see how IFC MT ZION PETE was bred years ago. If you go back and look at some of his offspring at how they were bred you will see why he is still influencing hounds of today. LineBreeding/Inbreeding what ever you want to call it does not work on all hounds or bloodlines. So you got to be picky or at least keep what suits you. One thing to keep in mind however when you make crossess like this they are bred for "brood" stock. Horse breeders, chicken fighters etc have done this for years. If you are lucky to get results that suit you in the field then you should be in the good for a couple of generations out. If you play your cards right a lifetime. I have seen and most have the best hounds dont always make the best producers.

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:51 pm

Inbreeding is a doubledged sword that can do a lot of damage to your breeding program in a very short time. It has been documented that in just 8 generations of inbreeding mother nature will step in and put a stop to it thru inbreeding depression. In just 8 years of father/daughter matings your entire bloodline could be infertale. The whole time that you are mating 2 related dogs to bring out desirable traits you are promoting undesirable traits that may not surface for generations down the road but will eventually. Unless you have the ability to look at the genetic strand you will never know these bad traits exsist until its to late.

That being said there is a place for In/linebreeding to lock certain positive traits in place, but it is impossible to improve on a bloodline without the introduction of new blood (new gene pool).

SMITTY1233 · Post by **SMITTY1233** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:54 pm

Greg H wrote:Inbreeding is a doubledged sword that can do a lot of damage to your breeding program in a very short time. It has been documented that in just 8 generations of inbreeding mother nature will step in and put a stop to it thru inbreeding depression. In just 8 years of father/daughter matings your entire bloodline could be infertale. The whole time that you are mating 2 related dogs to bring out desirable traits you are promoting undesirable traits that may not surface for generations down the road but will eventually. Unless you have the ability to look at the genetic strand you will never know these bad traits exsist until its to late.

That being said there is a place for In/linebreeding to lock certain positive traits in place, but it is impossible to improve on a bloodline without the introduction of new blood (new gene pool).

Very well said and thought through....

klrconcrete · Post by **klrconcrete** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:06 pm

I have been told by an older seasoned beagler that at one time trialed very hard in both the U.S. and Canada that Bill Hartman of Northtfield kennels at one time produced above average hounds-consistently via outcrossing or very loose linebreeding he then after many success' started to almost exclusively inbreed and in very short order had all but ruined a lifetime of breeding and was not able to get back what he once had! I cannot say I witnessed this but firsthand but I do believe what this other gentleman told me. Kurt

steve · Post by **steve** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:30 pm

Mybeagles
All I can say is you openly state you don't have experience so why would you post on a subject that's looking for advise why not just go on here and type BTT then we can see it's you with your quote at the bottom
OUT CROSS or DON'T CROSS. Then you wouldn't have to worry about getting bombarded with hate mail.As for the judging part you said it your self about the lack of experience so that would make me question why you give out the advise you do.Do you honestly think that anyone starting out knows what their doing it takes alot of trial and error so to speak and I myself have made plenty of mistakes you just don't make this happen overnite.And your comment about you going to school to better educate your self that's great and if you want to show that education you claim to of gotten sit back and observe who has done well with this in/linbreeding instead of condemming everybody that does it or talks about it that to me would be showing what has been learned.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:48 pm

Lets move on Steve, your making less sense with every post. I dont resent your opinions please dont resent mine. Prove me wrong with the dogs you produce..............Where are you from Steve? Dont believe we have ever met?

paz · Post by **paz** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:46 pm

Ron Conroe wrote:here we go again, why not just breed two good rabbit dogs togther.you know it isnt right. its humans that make them do it. would you breed your daughter to get better traits in your family.

That is not necessarily true. It is not practiced in modern times, that is all. Read the Old Testament, for that matter, do some research on Vikings, Saxons and other older cultures that tend to be homogenous.

Rev. Parks's book has some good info regarding this.

That being said, I wouldn't do it myself. I do not have the luxury of time and resources to keep the whole litter, which must be done in this case.

I'll breed my female to a well established line and try to do some linebreeding from that with my other females, that is as close as I care to try.

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:55 pm

May I ask a few questions please?

Why would you have to keep the whole litter so long (3-6 months)? I mean, why with THIS PARTICULAR breeding do you have to keep the whole litter? Do you guys always keep the WHOLE litter?

And instead of culling the pups why not give/sell some of them (the one headed ones

) to pet homes? Is there a fear of serious temperment issues involved?

JUST CURIOUS!

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:33 pm

in response to the actual question here... if you are familiar with the dogs background, and both are 100% what you want, then do it. yes you need to keep the whole litter and cull ruthlessly (something most are unwilling to do). i have never done a cross this close but would in the future if i thought i had two dogs that met the requirements. bottom line is you got to breed as close as you feel is comfortable. dont let others set your standards... you know what you want, and you may fail at times trying to get there, but if you dont try, then you will never get there.

Briarhoppers · Post by **Briarhoppers** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:38 pm

Honey Pot,

In regards to "culling" many people use that term to mean giving the dog away as a pet. It is also used in the fullest sense of the word. I believe most people on here would prefer to try and give away a dog that didn't meet their hunting / trailing standards. Now if the dog has genetic defects, or is mean or severely shy that is another story and the dog should not be passed on.

People often keep the whole litter to see how the litter turns out - especially if it is a first time breeding. W/ show dogs you can tell very quickly which is the pick of the litter simply based on appearance / confirmation / markings. But w/ a hunting dog many of the traits you are hoping for will not be evident until 6 - 9 mo. In a litter of 6 pups you could have everything from med. speed dogs to very fast dogs. You could have a pup that is a great jump dog and one that won't hunt a lick. You could have 13" dogs and 15" dogs. You could have a pup that is close to the line and one that is loose. You could have a pup that is loose mouthed and one that is tighted mouthed Etc., etc. Most litters are much more balanced than this, but keeping the whole litter until they have started is the only way to know if you accomplished your goal w/ the cross.

-pete

Robert W. Mccoy Jr · Post by **Robert W. Mccoy Jr** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:59 am

Thanks for all the opinions/info.

I was mainly wondering if any one has had first hand experiance with this and how it turned out.

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:31 am

Robert bottom line is i have done it before and will do it again , i am all about brood stock & without making certain crosses , you will breed yourself out of the game. Good luck whichever direction you take .