Father daughter crosses

NorWester · Post by **NorWester** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:22 am

I say go ahead, why not? Cull hard and I'll tell you something else, if you're very confident in the individuals you'll be using and if you dont get what you want from this breeding do the same breeding again till you get what you're after. I know of a breeder that made the same father/daughter cross 3 TIMES till he got the dog he was after. That particular individual elevated the breed he was involved with to a new level as the offspring was not only a good one herself but produced even better as did the decendants down from said inbreeding.

xdawg · Post by **xdawg** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:24 am

mybeagles wrote:Again list the top 10 dogs you can think of,......are any of them father daughter crosses???????

I know what you are saying.... However its a numbers thing.... Lets say you have 10,000 non father x daughter dogs to every 1 father x daughter so honestly, is it fair to make such a comparison?

-Jack

In all honesty.... I'm sure some of these top 10 dogs all time wouldn't impress all of us...

Robert W. Mccoy Jr · Post by **Robert W. Mccoy Jr** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:24 am

Andy,

Thats was a good article, very well written.

Dave,

I know your against it. I am on the fence I guess on this subject.

But I have pretty much cleared my kennel out and I am getting ready to keep a whole litter out of my male one way or the other. I finally found the male I want to duplicate exactly. I up for any ideas how to do it.

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:34 am

Norwester , you are exactly right that 1 time cross helps elevate generation 2 and some on and so forth . Once again i am not branko on breeding but i did stay at a holiday inn once . Good luck whatever road you choose .

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:39 am

Steve, why all the animosity? This is an old debate, but lets keep at that. I sensed you wanted to come out of the computer screen and grab me!

I have studied Biology in school, but not to learn how to breed dogs. You seem upset that Ive persued an education.
It seems to me a bigger part of whats molding the beagle of today is not how close they are bred but rather the traits we are breeding for. Speed and endurance seem to top the list and there never seems to be a shortage of them. Patience, check work, and nose seem to be harder to breed for and never seem to make the top of the priority list.

P.S. Steve the dog world will be safe from dilution as I havent bred any dogs lately and dont have any breedings planned!

Xdawg, in your mind where would we be with todays beagle if there were as many Father X daughter crosses as there are outcrosses?

NorWester · Post by **NorWester** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:59 am

mybeagles wrote:Steve, why all the animosity? This is an old debate, but lets keep at that. I sensed you wanted to come out of the computer screen and grab me!
I have studied Biology in school, but not to learn how to breed dogs. You seem upset that Ive persued an education.
It seems to me a bigger part of whats molding the beagle of today is not how close they are bred but rather the traits we are breeding for. Speed and endurance seem to top the list and there never seems to be a shortage of them. Patience, check work, and nose seem to be harder to breed for and never seem to make the top of the priority list.

P.S. Steve the dog world will be safe from dilution as I havent bred any dogs lately and dont have any breedings planned!

Xdawg, in your mind where would we be with todays beagle if there were as many Father X daughter crosses as there are outcrosses?

You're close Mybeagles.........on your point about traits. Selection is the key and must come before ANY style of breeding. All things being equal we wouldnt need to inbreed or linebreed but the problem is all things are usually never equal

Everyone breeds to different standards and one mans junk is another mans treasure (Im sure we've all heard that one or had experience to relate to it). Inbreeding/linebreeding or commonly referred to as FAMILY breeding are done to help lock in traits and make breeding more predictable. It is neither a good thing or a bad thing but simply a tool to be taken advantage of and everyone knows a tool is only effective if it is used properly.

SMITTY1233 · Post by **SMITTY1233** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:14 pm

I will not claim to be an expert but am far from it.... But if you have a family of hounds with deseriable traits you like and they have been bred for many generations successfully why wouldn't you keep linebreeding to lock those consistent traits and then occasionally step out to a line that has the same traits you desire. I'm not particularly saying father to daughter or brother to sister I am saying family linebreeding. It wouldn't make sense to consistenly outcross to me if you know what you can get and at a higher percentage of each breeding....

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:23 pm

Smitty each time you leave the family you redirect the future of your hard work . I have not or will not inbred all the time but i will tell you this done right , you will be way ahead of most . After all the EXPERTS are finding new hobbies , call me we can talk .

SMITTY1233 · Post by **SMITTY1233** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:30 pm

I have always thought if you want consistency linebreed, if you want a chance of a lifetime dog outcross. But you may have to weed through numerous dogs in outcrossing.... Just what it seems to me...

NorWester · Post by **NorWester** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:03 pm

SMITTY1233 wrote:I will not claim to be an expert but am far from it.... But if you have a family of hounds with deseriable traits you like and they have been bred for many generations successfully why wouldn't you keep linebreeding to lock those consistent traits and then occasionally step out to a line that has the same traits you desire. I'm not particularly saying father to daughter or brother to sister I am saying family linebreeding. It wouldn't make sense to consistenly outcross to me if you know what you can get and at a higher percentage of each breeding....

There's no reason why you wouldnt keep linebreeding within your own family of dogs. Unless of course somewhere along the line you zigged when you should have zagged. Basically you outcross when you need something your line is missing, and if you dont have to you wouldnt outcross. Everytime you outcross (unless of course it is another family of dogs you have been breeding yourself) you will no doubt introduce a new and unknown set of variables which you will have to weed thru.

ricky murphy · Post by **ricky murphy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:21 pm

i recommend to EVERYONE to keep a whole litter its its a good way to tell what u r breeding AND it will help u have better dogs yourself when u can pick what dog u like best out of 5 or 6 u KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT

Rabbit Fever · Post by **Rabbit Fever** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:05 pm

I think you should go ahead and do the breeding only if you are sure of the hounds traits Good and Bad. If any of these hounds have any undesirable traits at all DO NOT BREED. This breeding should only be done with two hounds with exceptional traits. This is the fastest way to get what you want from linebreeding,( Father- Daughter) you must keep all the pups. I would only do this once. Then the next breeding go back in bloodline. I have done alot of research on this matter and i am pretty confident about doing this in my kennel. But i repeat you must know these hounds backwards and foward, upsidedown and every way possible!!!!!!

steve · Post by **steve** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:18 pm

First off Bev thanks for posting the nice example of a pedigree

Now for MYBEAGLES
I come on here like everyone else and look to learn I for one am not or do not think or consider myself an expert but do enjoy reading what others have exprienced with their breeding ventures.What really trips my trigger is guys like yourself that say you can't breed this way or that,man get real.Why don't you call the guy that bred the dog Bev posted and tell him he's nuts for breeding a good dog and that's a good thing you wheren't around when G.Mendall did the pea study cause who knows what we would have now.You posted on the other topic about being a judge and so forth do you really feel qualified to take on this task when you openly admitt your convictions about inbreeding/linebreeding if I where a trial guy I'ld have my doubts about having you judge my hounds based on your theories.One thing that's good in all of this there are still guys willing to grab the bull by the horns and keep pioneering with their breeding program and not let others deter them from that. Now with that being said I myself have 2 females that are father daughter cross and from my little experience they work for me and the older of the 2 has had her second hunting season on her and will be getting bred back to her father again to see what is produced.So all of you in doubt you'll never know until you try and that B.S. about moral standards is just that, this has been going on for ever and will keep going on either you try it or miss out your choice but don't cry when others have what you could've had,And for the few pioneers just wait when the general public starts looking for what you have just like what was done in the brace era (funny how history repeats itself )With that being said lets see who else has positive responces about the inbreeding issue for thats what this poster wanted to begin with.

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:30 pm

Steve well put i just cant transfer thoughts to writing but you are saying what i fill as for MYBEAGLES no big deal man , some people aint meant to understand

hammerenpatch · Post by **hammerenpatch** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:47 pm

Ron Conroe wrote:here we go again, why not just breed two good rabbit dogs togther.you know it isnt right. its humans that make them do it. would you breed your daughter to get better traits in your family.

Take animals in the wild if a doe from a previous year comes into a dominate buck's territory do you think will will not breed her because its
his daughter. Or any other wild animal for that matter. Humans don't make them breed and only the strong are left to carry on the gene pool.
Get the book wilderness patch work by Willet Randall and read it.

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