Question for everyone
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
I've been following this thread for some time now and find the responses very interesting. I suppose if this question would have come up a few years ago, I would have felt the same way as most of you do today and say "No way would I ever consider breeding to a dog less than a year old!", but time and experience have a way of changing opinions.
Some of the responses consider a hound this young to have not yet given his full attention to running rabbits. I would never breed to a hound that hasn't given his full attention to running rabbits yet either, but who says that this one hasn't? Have you seen the hound run? Just because a lot of hounds under a year old may not have given their full attention to running rabbits yet doesn't mean this one hasn't. The only one that knows that for sure is the guy that watches him run day in and day out.
Other responses suggest that breeding a hound this young will make him think of nothing but breeding instead of hunting. I suppose that this is a legitimate concern, but this would seem to me to be an indication of lack of hunting desire which would probably be noticeable before even considering this hound for breeding. If a male would rather breed than run rabbits then he probably shouldn't be considered for mating anyway. Now before you jump all over that statement consider this, have you ever ran a male with a female in heat? I have, and if he has more interest in the female than the rabbits, he doesn't get bred. I never would have believed this until I read the Wick book, so I tried it and he is exactly right.
Most responses say to wait until a certain amount of time has passed in order to see "what kind of dog he will be". Some say 2 years, some say 2 gun seasons, some say 1 1/2 years. What about 6 years? Is that long enough? I'm sure that most would say "well, of course it is". But I've seen a d@mn fine hound turn into a cull at 6 years old because she just stopped hunting hard at that age. Then it got to the point that she wouldn't hunt at all with strange dogs. So maybe we should say wait until a hound is 7 years old?
My contention is that age isn't nearly as important as level of maturity. Some hounds mentally mature faster than others, some still act like puppies at 2 years old while a few (very few that I've seen) mentally mature very quickly. A very few are level headed at a young age and don't get rattled by running with faster, wilder packmates. Most are not. Those very few that are level headed from an early age seem to be less likely to develop bad habits the older they get. Once a breeder is able to recognize a trait like this in his breeding program, he's able to more accurately predict how young hounds will turn out.
Some say that even considering breeding a male under a year old indicates a new beagler with little knowledge and definitely not anyone who's been in the sport awhile. Less than subtle dig at the person with the young male, unless we know the intended goal of this possible breeding, I don't think that's a fair statement.
Some of the responses consider a hound this young to have not yet given his full attention to running rabbits. I would never breed to a hound that hasn't given his full attention to running rabbits yet either, but who says that this one hasn't? Have you seen the hound run? Just because a lot of hounds under a year old may not have given their full attention to running rabbits yet doesn't mean this one hasn't. The only one that knows that for sure is the guy that watches him run day in and day out.
Other responses suggest that breeding a hound this young will make him think of nothing but breeding instead of hunting. I suppose that this is a legitimate concern, but this would seem to me to be an indication of lack of hunting desire which would probably be noticeable before even considering this hound for breeding. If a male would rather breed than run rabbits then he probably shouldn't be considered for mating anyway. Now before you jump all over that statement consider this, have you ever ran a male with a female in heat? I have, and if he has more interest in the female than the rabbits, he doesn't get bred. I never would have believed this until I read the Wick book, so I tried it and he is exactly right.
Most responses say to wait until a certain amount of time has passed in order to see "what kind of dog he will be". Some say 2 years, some say 2 gun seasons, some say 1 1/2 years. What about 6 years? Is that long enough? I'm sure that most would say "well, of course it is". But I've seen a d@mn fine hound turn into a cull at 6 years old because she just stopped hunting hard at that age. Then it got to the point that she wouldn't hunt at all with strange dogs. So maybe we should say wait until a hound is 7 years old?
My contention is that age isn't nearly as important as level of maturity. Some hounds mentally mature faster than others, some still act like puppies at 2 years old while a few (very few that I've seen) mentally mature very quickly. A very few are level headed at a young age and don't get rattled by running with faster, wilder packmates. Most are not. Those very few that are level headed from an early age seem to be less likely to develop bad habits the older they get. Once a breeder is able to recognize a trait like this in his breeding program, he's able to more accurately predict how young hounds will turn out.
Some say that even considering breeding a male under a year old indicates a new beagler with little knowledge and definitely not anyone who's been in the sport awhile. Less than subtle dig at the person with the young male, unless we know the intended goal of this possible breeding, I don't think that's a fair statement.
For what it's worth, AKC will not register a litter sired by a male under 9 months, nor will it register a litter off a dam under 12 months. Personally I wouldn't use a pup to sire a litter but I do like to try a young stud (between 1 1/2 to 2 years old) on a proven bitch to see what he may be capable of producing before I start to consider whether I might want to campaign him in trials later on. If he can't produce in kind, the FC title doesn't mean much and I don't want to spend the time, effort and money in pursuing a title.
Great response Back40.I must get that book that John Wick wrote and do some reading myself.From a breeders perspective when you really think about some of your statement envolving the hound paying more attention to a female in heat than going hunting you can hardly call that lack of desire to hunt because that's natures call for reproduction and I find it hard to believe that a hounds desire to run a rabbit should be or is stronger than natures call of LOVE.These are hounds(not people that can resist the sexual urge when they have a mind too) were talking about,animals that are governed mostly by instinct (natures way;inborn impluse) and some learned traits that we show them. John
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blackdirt beagles
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bunnyjumper
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I am not sure what you mean by letting you down???? It's not me breeding to an 8 month old hound. Its along time breeder with his own line of hounds, which I will not identifybunnyjumper wrote:Farwest, your letting me down, the answer is simple " I personaly would never use a male unless he had a couple of good gunseasons over him, I would use a two year old if he was my idea of a good dog"
John, I wouldn't have believed a hound's desire to hunt should be stronger than his desire for the ladies either until I read Wick's book. Then I decided to test his theory myself. I've had two males that when given a choice of breeding vs. hunting for rabbits, they chose hunting first. One of those males was 8 years old and definitely had been around the block a time or two with the ladies. The other was under a year old. I was quite shocked when I saw the choice they had made. I believe you are right in that they are governed by instinct and that maybe I shouldn't consider that "lack of desire to hunt". I just want them to have more instinct and an even greater desire to run rabbits. I think the entire breed would benefit greatly if more people tested their males this way. We'd probably see a lot fewer hounds standing around or walking in the paths with the handlers at these field trials.
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JIMMIE ABSHIRE
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I dont want to bash tony uptons dog grizz . He has done what few will ever accomplish including myself . Is he a reproducer i dont know , i aint seen or heard anything from him . I bred for jimmie because i like what i like . Years ago before the word genetics was ever thought of there were people such as branko , kormoney & several others that did not care who was doing what they jumped out and did there own thing . So people aint just got smart and from what i am seeing and hearing the old days were pretty good so my thought is this , since we have all these data bases ,
rocket scientest and wanna be breeders . Where is the money dog ? I aint seen mr stud of the 21 century appear yet . Maybe the good ol days were just that especially in the breeding world . On a positive note i will say turbo powered by prop has been the strongest thing to come down the line in quite sometime . These views are mine and only mine
rocket scientest and wanna be breeders . Where is the money dog ? I aint seen mr stud of the 21 century appear yet . Maybe the good ol days were just that especially in the breeding world . On a positive note i will say turbo powered by prop has been the strongest thing to come down the line in quite sometime . These views are mine and only mine
Old school Northway . Full Throttle no Bottle.
Another great response Back40.I must try this theory out for myself.Your right about some of the hounds out there today with NO DESIRE that stand at your feet waiting for you to beat the brush for them(these are the same hounds that the owner says are check hounds notice the owner didn't said anything about the desire to get one going).IF they would rather go hunting than have their nose stuck up a females back side they should be worthy of breeding,because I would call that TO MUCH DESIRE and ever hunter/trialer needs that in a hound to be sucessful. John
When it comes down to a desire to hunt or a desire to chase females as the decision maker in whether a hound is worthy to breed, we need to apply some common sense.
First off, how is the dog going to reproduce if it is not interested in a female in heat?
I'm no biologist but I think I understand enough to know that puppies don't come from chasing rabbits. 
Second, when it comes to these 2 basic instincts we can logically compare men to beagles. If given a choice between hunting or spending time with a female who desired male companionship, men and beagles see these things basically the same way.
As in most things in life, it depends on the female.
I've seen some females that if I was given the choice between spending time with them or going hunting, the only thing you would see would be the taillights on the truck and the black marks on the pavement as I headed out towards my hunting spot with the dogs chasing me trying not to get left behind. I'm not sure that would make me a great producer nor that I always would have that great desire to hunt.
On the other hand, we have all seen the postings by guys who are selling all their hunting gear and their dogs and sometimes even their truck and we wonder why, so we ask. Sure enough the reply is "I'm getting married and we don't have room for everything so I've got to sell some things, to make room." We all know that this is not a guy who has no desire to hunt and it is no indication that he will not be a great producer that ends up producing some of the best hunters out there.
I think in dogs as well as in men we are missing what attribute both of these expose. "Brains" or the lack of them. You decide which case applies to which, cause if I have to tell you then we know you're not going to reproduce greatness.
First off, how is the dog going to reproduce if it is not interested in a female in heat?
I'm no biologist but I think I understand enough to know that puppies don't come from chasing rabbits. Second, when it comes to these 2 basic instincts we can logically compare men to beagles. If given a choice between hunting or spending time with a female who desired male companionship, men and beagles see these things basically the same way.
As in most things in life, it depends on the female.
I've seen some females that if I was given the choice between spending time with them or going hunting, the only thing you would see would be the taillights on the truck and the black marks on the pavement as I headed out towards my hunting spot with the dogs chasing me trying not to get left behind. I'm not sure that would make me a great producer nor that I always would have that great desire to hunt.
On the other hand, we have all seen the postings by guys who are selling all their hunting gear and their dogs and sometimes even their truck and we wonder why, so we ask. Sure enough the reply is "I'm getting married and we don't have room for everything so I've got to sell some things,
to make room." We all know that this is not a guy who has no desire to hunt and it is no indication that he will not be a great producer that ends up producing some of the best hunters out there. I think in dogs as well as in men we are missing what attribute both of these expose. "Brains" or the lack of them. You decide which case applies to which, cause if I have to tell you then we know you're not going to reproduce greatness.
"Watch your dog and SHUT-UP"
Both of the males I tested this way were in fact interested in the female in heat, it's just that when it came time to go hunting, they knew it and chose to do that first. Wick's test was to haul a male with a red hot female in the same box (different compartments) out to a hunting spot. The male could smell the female the entire way. Then when arriving at the hunting spot, he would tie the female to a tree near the male when he was let out of the box. Then he would see if the male wanted to breed or hunt. It's not that the male isn't interested in the female, it's just that he's more interested in hunting.
I've tested two males using a slight variation of Wick's method. Once, I showed a male the red hot female. Then I leashed them both up and walked them out to the hunting spot and released them. They both went hunting, no playing around. After about an hour of running, I leashed them back up and brought them back to the kennel to be mated. The other time I let the male in the pen with the red hot female. Before they could mate, I opened the gate and let the male out. He went hunting immediately, no hesitation. Ran him awhile then made the breeding.
Comparing men to Beagles: I'm not sure how a male hound's reaction to this test would "depend on the female" if she's red hot ready for breeding. As for the brains, if the male being tested is smart enough to know that I want him to go hunting instead, then great. If he simply has a greater amount of desire and instinct to go hunt instead of breed, even better. If he decides that he wants some lovin' first, well I won't call that brains or lack of brains, I just won't breed him.
I never claimed that passing this test would indicate a great producer or that he would always have that great desire to hunt, because as we all know, nothing is guaranteed. I also never claimed that a male who failed this test couldn't produce. I'm sure there are some males out there with no desire whatsoever that could produce pups that have it. I'm just not going to waste my time with them when I feel that I can stack the odds in my favor with hounds that already have it.
I've tested two males using a slight variation of Wick's method. Once, I showed a male the red hot female. Then I leashed them both up and walked them out to the hunting spot and released them. They both went hunting, no playing around. After about an hour of running, I leashed them back up and brought them back to the kennel to be mated. The other time I let the male in the pen with the red hot female. Before they could mate, I opened the gate and let the male out. He went hunting immediately, no hesitation. Ran him awhile then made the breeding.
Comparing men to Beagles: I'm not sure how a male hound's reaction to this test would "depend on the female" if she's red hot ready for breeding. As for the brains, if the male being tested is smart enough to know that I want him to go hunting instead, then great. If he simply has a greater amount of desire and instinct to go hunt instead of breed, even better. If he decides that he wants some lovin' first, well I won't call that brains or lack of brains, I just won't breed him.
I never claimed that passing this test would indicate a great producer or that he would always have that great desire to hunt, because as we all know, nothing is guaranteed. I also never claimed that a male who failed this test couldn't produce. I'm sure there are some males out there with no desire whatsoever that could produce pups that have it. I'm just not going to waste my time with them when I feel that I can stack the odds in my favor with hounds that already have it.
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JIMMIE ABSHIRE
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Back40, pretty interesting but check this out and reply. We were at the owner of pine mtn chester house, shooting some silver bullets waiting on a guy from mississippi to show , at this point in chester life he had not been ran for quite some time . When this guy pulls up in the drive ol chester pops out of kennel and gets a (should we say ) throbber going .
Man i lost it , i reckon he has been bred to the extint when he spots a fresh fish he is on point . GOTTA LOVE EM
Man i lost it , i reckon he has been bred to the extint when he spots a fresh fish he is on point . GOTTA LOVE EM
Old school Northway . Full Throttle no Bottle.