Question for everyone

Farwest · Post by **Farwest** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:25 am

Greg H, I see you are into horses and racing them. Have you ever used an eight month old colt as your stud?

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:10 am

oh oh ya got me up on my podium now.

Horses age differently than dogs do. A dog will reach its full physical size within the first year of life. A horse will continue growing until they are about 4 years old. Its almost 3 to 1. I would have to say that a 8 month old pup is equal to a 2 year old horse. An eight month old horse is equal to a three month old dog. about a month off the mammas tit.

These test breeding are done all the time. A proven stud will service between 120 and 200 mares a year thru artificial inscemination. When test breeding they will cover about 20 mares. These are usually mares that are 100% producers. It is not looked down upon at all, and there are millions of dollars at stake not a few trophies and some ribbons. I will say this tho', In horses we can breed certain traits in or out using studs with the traits we desire. We can breed warm water. In dogs if you try this you get some cold and some hot.

Now in most of these cases the young horse was injured in some way as to prevent him from racing.. But when someone spends $250,000.00 and up on a yearling they are going to try to get some return. Breeding horses is similar to breeding dogs. We all want to use studs that have fast records and 7 figure earnings, but we also look at the potential a horse has by looking into his ancestry more detailed than we do with dogs. In horses we have a progam called Pedigree Matching that we can hypothetically breed two horses and get a clear picture of what the offspring will accomplish. It is really a handy tool to have, I wish someone would come up with this for dogs.

TC · Post by TC » Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:30 am

Why couldn't you use this program on dogs? Just replace the horse information with the dog information... Or is it more complex then that?

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 am

TC,
I think a program like this would have to be developed for kennel to kennel use. There are far to many "indians in the wood pile" with dogs to get an accurate picture, but Kennels that know their breedings and how each dog turned out could use this. They would have to score each dog somehow to provide a complete picture.

TC · Post by TC » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:08 pm

Would this program be something like the Dal program http://www.geocities.com/willowind_dals/pedigree.html , it has the coeffiecent information, however like you said you have to know what turns out of the breeding pairs, and the prior stock to make it work properly.

This would only work if you were honest with your self on the progress of your lines. This I find is where we are all wearing rose colored glasses sometimes and don't want to look outside the box for the betterment of our kennels. Also you would have to increase your amount of evaluation of out side bloodlines to see if they will fit your running style.

Just because one person has the most awesome dog in the world don't mean it will enhance what you have in your kennel, that is where you are introducing the wild card everytime. Some times the outside bloodline has hidden genes that will either produce what you are looking for or will turn into your biggest mistake ever. But you won't be able to tell until you do a test breeding to that particular line.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:09 pm

There is so much more that is necessary in a good rabbit hound, than is required in a horse that can beat the clock.
The grey hound is our equivalent to the race horse. Hardly what one would consider taking rabbit hunting, without the aid of a scent hound.
Most of us will only scratch the surface, of the knowledge and experience needed to breed good hounds, time and money is always the yoke around our necks, but that shouldn't prevent us from trying to get the best from whats available to us.
A question for everyone, what is your plan for the material your using?...

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:18 pm

I guess i am old school , you dont bred a bitch the first heat cycle , a 8 month old male aint even got a good set of nuts yet ! If thats your best
bet on a stud i would hang on . He is probaly still on puppy chow whats the big rush ?

Mclurkn3 · Post by **Mclurkn3** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:21 pm

Greg H.
Can you send me that program and I will try to develop it for hounds...

Thanks!

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:03 pm

Mclurkn3,
I will try to burn a disk off of my master. It will be the '99 version because thats when I bought it and I just keep updating each years. Its pretty cool. Pm your info.

You guys are excatly right. Without there being a universal scoring system in which each dog was scored honestly it would never work. I disagree with you though SR Patch. With the exception of scenting, we are breeding for the same traits in horses as we are in beagles. Speed, Stamina, Heart, ability to overcome bad conditions, motherhood, ect....
By the way, we don't get paid for beating a clock. We have to beat 10 other horses that are trying to do the same thing.

Here is the big wrench in the whole idea of trying to adapt this program for dogs. While horses only have 1 foal at a time, dogs split the genes to several pups. There in layes the rough.

As for breeding, I am going to use the term "a young dog", (rather that 8 month old pup because the dog in question is now going on 11 months and hasn't been breed yet) haven't we all had that dog that we wish we could replace. If a young dog is showing so much promise for his age then why not secure those bloodlines by test breeding him. You don't have to sell the pups, and you don't have to continue to breed him at a young age. SR Patch has one example in Linesman. It obviously didn't hurt that hound to get a little at a young age planned or not. Not only did this dog go on to be a good one but he produced from breeding at 9 months. Now did SR know this dog was going to be as good as he turned out? Probably not. But he new the potential was there by the ancesty.

coyote hunter · Post by **coyote hunter** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:09 pm

Greg H for someone that talks so much of how breeding works which you may know ,and how you should do this and that when breeding to secure the blood,why don't you have the best that can be produced??I would certainly be interested in one of them.Dan

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:25 pm

Coyote Hunter,
Are you talking about horses or hounds? I am always looking to get more owners in the barn. I could set you up with a little homebred that would only set ya back about $50,000.00 US. As for hounds the only guy that I need to satisfy is myself. On a good year I might produce 7 pups so there is not alot to choose from, but you are welcome to try one next time I breed. I have decided to abandon the line of hounds I was using and am starting all over with the Bramlett as my foundation. It could be awhile before I have a pup to send ya. Gotta go jog another horse be back in 20 minutes.

Post by **Aaron Bartlett** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:49 pm

If all I had to breed to was a 8-10 month old pup I think I would start looking for someone else to buy a pup from or someone else that has another Stud. Reguardless of how well that 8-10 month old pup was doing there is no way I would attempt to breed it or want to buy a pup from someone who did this. Just my opinion!

JIMMIE ABSHIRE · Post by **JIMMIE ABSHIRE** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:57 pm

BINGO

Woody65 · Post by **Woody65** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:53 pm

I really believe you could hurt a pup that age group by breeding him. He may go around wanting to breed everything in sight, most aren't mature enough to handle that kind of pressure nor do they need to at that age. When he is learning about his training for future hunts or trials he gets exposed to something that older dogs somethings have trouble controlling at an older age. I would never breed at that age group nor would I suggest it to anyone. thanks for listening. Woodrow

coyote hunter · Post by **coyote hunter** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:26 pm

Greg H wrote:Coyote Hunter,
Are you talking about horses or hounds? I am always looking to get more owners in the barn. I could set you up with a little homebred that would only set ya back about $50,000.00 US. As for hounds the only guy that I need to satisfy is myself. On a good year I might produce 7 pups so there is not alot to choose from, but you are welcome to try one next time I breed. I have decided to abandon the line of hounds I was using and am starting all over with the Bramlett as my foundation. It could be awhile before I have a pup to send ya. Gotta go jog another horse be back in 20 minutes.

So you are you changing lines if you know so much about breeding WHY???Beagles I mean.As to the 50.000 us I am not interested in horses but when you breed the perfect hound you say can be bred I have no problem with it.The way you say you are always looking to get more owners in the barn

really.....That don't surprise me to much for some reason

Got to go put an ear out for the dogs I have running , be back in 20min. or so.Dan