trained or inherited traits

[bunnyjumper]

I seem to see a lot of debate on dogs traits; just curious on everyones opinion on what traits you would call inherited ( " its in their genes" ) and which traits you would call trained. Also which ones do you think enviroment has the biggest effect on?

[four seasons]

My opinion is that most traits that are genetic are physical characteristics such as color, heigth, width,etc. These inherited physical characteristics in turn have an effect on a dogs running style, fast, slow, cold nosed, etc. Other traits I would call learned rather than trained. Traits such as hunt and line control are influenced by genetics but also are impacted by learning. Environmental influences I would consider as proper nutrition, proper care, and the effect you have on your dog when you take him to the field. For instance where and ho often you take him out, and how much work you make him do. All in all I think each factor has an equal amount of effect on a dogs ability. However you have to start somewhere, so why not start with proven genetics.

[Red Briar Kennels]

Man, there's alot of opinions there for sure. I think hunt, desire, nose, size, obviously their markings and overall demeanor are definately some of the things that I think about when I think traits. Although there do seem to be common denominators among certain breeds or bloodlines, like their willingness to run trash, or maybe how soon or late the dogs start when young. But again, some of those things might be how the dog is worked with and trained. For sure I think that on average a dog that is gun shy for example,..is more times than not "made" that way by the owner. I think the list could comprise of traits, and the training/environment together.

There are so many things that go hand in hand. I think how the dog is dealt with as a pup has a pretty big impact on it down the road. I think if the dog is surrounded by a poor environment and given no boundaries, you could potentially take a well bred dog with solid "traits" and ruin him. Or at least never really see the dogs full potential. And I think we've all witnessed at one time (if you've done this for any length of time) the dog that never was supposed to amount to anything, later turn out to be an above average hound simply because someone really took the time and worked with the dog. So I don't know. That's a really good question. I think alot of what people could say could be argued either way.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

I agree that taking care of them as pups makes a huge differance.
it is a heck of alot easier for me to train a pup I raised verses one I bought at 6 months.

I train my dogs to down on command, hunt in the same direction I am hunting, come when called, and not run fast game.

Everything else they do is in there genes or learned on there own.

I'll give a couple examples because this is one of the most (discussed) points between me and my hunting buddies.

Dogs learn to handle fences on there own. I do not think it is genetic for a pup to know to go under verses over a fence.

Dogs learn to handle site chases on there own. I have raised hard charging hare breed 15 inch males and 13" cottontail breed females.
The ones with brains learn to mark the spot the rabbit was last at instead of running crazy after it is gone.

The way (some) hare breed dogs swing out 30 feet in a check instead of looking inside and the way (most) cottontail breed dogs drop there heads and check inside. That is GENETIC in my opinion.

Some of the ubgf dogs I have run with would die of starvation before they would reach 30 feet in a check. That is in them. I have seen some hare breed dogs up here that look every where else in the woods before they come back to the place they lost the rabbit. Some of those hare breed dogs that did that were pups that I breed, raised and ran solo there hole (short) life. So I know it was genetic because I was the only one who ever ran them.

I've seen other hare breed dogs that can pound a rabbit and stay pretty close. But usually it is no fluke. There are usually other dogs in the pedigree that can do the same.

I've seen a couple ubgf dogs that hunt. But usually it is because there is a dog or two back there that hunted also.

I have friends who think running a dog solo enough you can make it change its running style.

I think you can adjust them some UNTILL they get tired or get a little pressure put on them. Then they are gonna run they way they were BREED to run.

I have a perfict example of this setting in my kennel right now.
We have two litter mate pups that are running very well. There 8 months old and have already been gunned over. They have been trained the exact same way. Ran the same etc. The male is extremly close in a check and wants to run every bit of the line. He hunts hard and has a big nose and cold trails some. The female has an avarage nose never cold trails. She hunts hard and runs heads up any chance she gets. They were started and ran the same way. It is in her to want to run the front and be aggressive. It is in him to run the track and slot up. When they are 3 you can bet he will be close and clean and she will be a head banger her whole life.

Running style, Heart, agressivness, nose, mouth, HEART. Thats all genetic in my opinion and gunning them hard will bring everything they have in them out. The good and the bad.


These are just my opinions.

[JAW]

Well said Robert,couldn't said it any better. John

[windy hollow]

I think its 40% breeding and 60% training that makes a Great hound.
Just my

[JAW]

I think its 40% breeding and 60% training that makes a Great hound.
Just my

Mr. do yourself a favor and read the books John Parks or the late Willet Randall has about breeding beagles.You can not have 40% breeding and 60% training,please remember that a great hound must start with good breeding first and foremost with EQUAL EMPHASIS on training.Read chapters 8 & 9 of John Parks book Breeding Better Beagles.The book Wilderness Patch Work about the life and times of the GREAT breeder Willet Randall and the breeding concepts he used to breed the legendary PATCH hounds.You shouldn't want a hound with 40% breeding because it will be deficient of certain genes and traits that could make it a great hound and ALL the training in the world wont help it beyond that 40%. Read alot talk a little. John Watson

[crewchf]

John, I think the point is, you may have the best bred hound in the world but if you hunt him only once or twice a year, he'll never make it big!!! Thats where training comes in... Don't you think???


Crew Chief

[windy hollow]

I think its 40% breeding and 60% training that makes a Great hound.
Just my

Mr. do yourself a favor and read the books John Parks or the late Willet Randall has about breeding beagles.You can not have 40% breeding and 60% training,please remember that a great hound must start with good breeding first and foremost with EQUAL EMPHASIS on training.Read chapters 8 & 9 of John Parks book Breeding Better Beagles.The book Wilderness Patch Work about the life and times of the GREAT breeder Willet Randall and the breeding concepts he used to breed the legendary PATCH hounds.You shouldn't want a hound with 40% breeding because it will be deficient of certain genes and traits that could make it a great hound and ALL the training in the world wont help it beyond that 40%. Read alot talk a little. John Watson

Mr. I have been training hounds since 1972 and I dont need to read nothing out of no damned book. If you dont know how to train a good hound, it dont matter where it came from, you will never get a great hound, and there are no trophies or ribbons that will put rabbits on a menu. like I said, Just my

[blackdirt beagles]

i think most traits are very much genetic... BUT training will influence a lot of them also. you cant turn a cull into a field champ just by running it... it has to have the right genetic makeup and has to be in a good trainers hands also.

[JAW]

Mr. Windy,
It doesn't matter how long you've been training hounds your not going to get anything out of 40% breeding and 60% training.The hound must possess the hunting trait in order for it to amount to anything.All the training in the world can't help you if the hound is not breed right.Look at the show hounds that have small traces of hunting in their back ground.That would constitute your 40% so is it realistic to believe that you can turn the show hound with such a small trace of hunting into a world champ with 60% training?By the way I know plenty on how to train a hound,but the hound MUST possess the traits for me to work with and bring them out.And I'm no field trialer,so ribbons mean NOTHING to me. John Watson

[APFII]

Coon dogs and beagles --If the genetic traits are not their it does not make any difference how good a trainer you are. They will not make a good dog. Trainers can either ruin a dog or give him the oportunity to exell. Just an opinion of an old farm boy.

[SMITTY1233]

It all starts with the proper genetics NOse, hunt, line control, heart, desire etc.... It ends with how they are handled as youngsters.... It takes both to make a successful hound. But I can gurantee if you start with trash you will end with trash. If you start with a well bred hound and don't train them right you still might get a rabbit dog, just not one that reached their true potential... Have said several times to myself, man if I owned that hound they would really be special. Usually really nice dogs but just didn't get the exposure or handling they needed to shine.... IMHO...

[bunnyjumper]

Thanks for the replys, I have my own thoughts on this, just wondered about everyone else. I also believe that that a dogs traits such as; hunt, desire, brains, etc. are in their genes. I also believe that those traits can be influenced through their environment and training. I don't believe that you can change a dogs style of running but through training you can make them hunt how you want. I like my dogs to stay close to me and not stray away on their own, thats training. I want my dogs in the brush when I point, thats training. I don't want my dogs running anything but a rabbit, thats training. I can't change how they run, but I can influence how they act.

[gus]

What is there to training a beagle. If you turn him loose in the middle of a rabbit patch, if the genetics are there he will start and develop his potential. They don't all start and develop at the same rate, but if given an opportunity, if they are geneticaly programed correctly, they will start.
If you think his development is the result of your training, then go to the city humane society, pick up a couple of pups, and train them to be field champions. The odds of success are less than 40% OR 60% which ever you choose.