Exactly Why I don't trial much

[Jesse Duncan]

QUOTE SMITTY: What I am saying is I would like to see us judge these so called "trial/gun dogs" in conditions that promote hunting.

I almost didn't comment on this thread; but I felt the need to say my peace. For the most part I can understand where Smitty is coming from. I ran ARHA/NKC PP for five years, and the only reason I got out was because the leadership; and not the dogs. I quoted Smittys post to answer it. As a PP judge, I have judged some awsome trial hounds that would hold up all day long in ANY hunting conditions. Most of them I know would probably out run the majority of any gun dogs around period. I have a three year old male here at home that is a PP champ; and I would take it up against any gun dog out there. I know that dog to well, and I'm not worried about it getting beat in any conditions. He is a pure gun dog and a good trial dog. I guarentee that he would be there all day long. I just wanted to add this to this thread, because it seemed that the trail dogs were not being measured up to just an old gun dog. I don't think that we need to go that far if we don't hit the trails a lot and not seeing what some of these "so called trial/gundogs" are made of. Peace Jesse Duncan

[tommyg]

There shouldn't be a difference in trial and gun dogs. They should excell at both. If a hound has a serious lack of nose or other fault why keep it. The realy good hounds do it all and do it right. What someone considers a fault another may like,its all up to the owner,they feed them.

[buckridge]

I use to judge a lot of UBGF trials, and yes it is somewhat true, judges for the most part have dogs that can win, I got rid of a lot of what I thought were very good dogs, just to have some dogs that could win or place in trials. I finally decided to keep the dogs I really liked and not the ones judges would place in trials.
Simply stated I like accomplishment over style.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

I WENT TO A FIELD TRIAL ONCE ,HAD A GOOD RABBIT DOG ,HE DIDN'T,, WIN,, DIDN'T EVEN PLACE.WELL ON THE WAY HOME I TRIED TO TELL HIM HEY YOU ARE STILL THE,,, SAME DOG YOU WERE THIS MORNING,,,.HE JUST WOULD NOT HAVE IT ,THE NEXT DAY I TOOK HIM HUNTING. HE HAD LOST ALL INTEREST.I HAD TO TAKE HIM TO THERAPY FEED HIM EXTRA. BRING HIM IN THE HOUSE...THE STORY IS YOU BRING BACK THE SAME DOG YOU TAKE TO THE TRIALS.. JUST HAVE FUN LET THE REST TAKE CARE OF IT'S SELF.

PINE MT BEAGLES

[TURNER]

I was at a trial this year here in KY. and a JUDGE picked me up.I didn,t ask him anything about why.He came to me and said ,you have a SUPER GUN DOG,I bet he a pleasure to hunt with.........The question i have is,What is the difference in a great gun dog and a trail dog.I thought this was THE MID-WEST GUN DOG ASS. This is why I dont like to trail much anymore.

[SMITTY1233]

I was at a trial this year here in KY. and a JUDGE picked me up.I didn,t ask him anything about why.He came to me and said ,you have a SUPER GUN DOG,I bet he a pleasure to hunt with.........The question i have is,What is the difference in a great gun dog and a trail dog.I thought this was THE MID-WEST GUN DOG ASS. This is why I dont like to trail much anymore.

Exactly my point......

I am guessing he was trying to find a positive in your dog, My only point is a great Gun Dog should be able to compete in field trials and in most formats. That is what the hound was originally bred for and what we should be judging on. Sometimes I think the AKC should judge some of these trials is line up 20-30 dogs let a rabbit run around a track and see what dog crosses the finish line first.... Like I said I have nothing against trialing and do it myself and have a very competitive dog that has won. Just see it getting out of hand. Dogs were bred to be gunned first and trialed second in my mind...

[Wilson Creek Dad]

Just remember, because some like it different does not make it wrong, just different.
We try to kill a few rabbits over our dogs every season but not into killing a lot. I don't have anything against hunting, but killing a lot of rabbits is just not for me, plus around close we do not have a lot of rabbits so we try not to damage our running spots.
I really enjoy going out watching and working with our trial dogs. They are fast, aggressive, and very competitive which I am sure most would consider not a good beagle to hunt with. This is what we like to work with, they are not bad beagles and we are not wrong, just enjoy it a little different. Gun dogs are great and I really enjoy them also, but personally for me I prefer the faster trial dogs.

[WELLS WOODS]

Guys, If you don't like the trials just stay home. The judges are doing the best they can. No dog is going to place every time. The little bitches' winners pack that I judged Thursday ran the same rabbit for over 2 hours(with very few checks) and I don't mean followed the track; they pursued with the intent to overtake! What more can you ask for in a pack of gundogs? When we called field trial the handlers had to catch them off of the rabbit.
I wish we all could win, but we can't. Some dogs just don't have what it takes; others could probably do good in trials, but thier owners get so bent out of shape over a bad break or two that they quit trying. Some guys know they have a quality hound capable of winning and they keep coming back win or lose until they finish them as a field champion. Good Luck to everyone with your hounds whether you field trial or not, but don't try to tell me that the MidWest is not running gundogs.

[SMITTY1233]

Greg,

I am not trying to say the Midwest is not running gun dogs.... I have one with two wins and he is definately a gun dog, I don't know that because of the trials, I know that because of the million hours I have on him under the gun and pleasure running him. I have no problems with the trials themselves other than they are usually ran under optimal conditions, and with a lot more pressure on a dog than you would normally want in a hunting situation. Which in my mind may let a dog with a little lesser nose win at times and a dog that is overly aggresive with packmates suffer. You actually judged my hound last year and I thought he got everything he deserved and didn't even place...... Your missing my point I think. I think we have the opportunity to make the trials an even better tool if we ran them both in good scenting conditions and poor scenting conditions. I won't ever stop trialing because of a judges opinion of my hound in two hours. Because for every judge that watches my hound for two hours I have watched him 30 times that much in the field between gunning and pleasure running. I know what I have and I like what I have. I just think we could implement a better stadard by which we judge our hounds. Just my two cents... Not trying to be offensive in any way.

Thanks and happy running.....

[WELLS WOODS]

No offense taken, but we have trials in the MidWest all year except for June, July, and August. Scenting conditions can change in an instant and a dog with an inferior nose will never excell in a field trial in my opinion no matter how good scenting conditions may seem.

[SMITTY1233]

No offense taken, but we have trials in the MidWest all year except for June, July, and August. Scenting conditions can change in an instant and a dog with an inferior nose will never excell in a field trial in my opinion no matter how good scenting conditions may seem.

I know this might not apply to KY but how many in the entire Association are ran on snow... My gunning season starts here after deer season so usually in Dec and runs through end of March which normally means on all snow. If you talk to guys from U.P., Canada, NE they probably tell you the same things. I guess its more a regional thing probably. Not saying your dogs can't run snow because there is a lot of the same blood down there as there is here...

I guess what I am suggesting is probably way out of the realm of possibility. It would probably hurt the numbers for AKC if we went to more snow trials. People don't like nasty weather plain and simple. I just think you would see the quality of hound increase if you went to more snow trials. Just my opinion. If you find a quality hound that runs snow really well, there aren't usually day's on bare ground that they struggle.

This has kind of gotten off topic, I would never stop trialing because of the way trials are ran, or when they are. The original post was about people pissing and moaning over getting beat..... There are good judges and bad judges just like there are good hounds and bad hounds... Plain and simple, if you can't handle that fact don't trial I guess is the answer...

[WELLS WOODS]

Are scenting conditions always tough on snow? If a hound can win on snow, shouldn't it be able to win on bare ground also?

[SMITTY1233]

I think a good snow hound has an easier time running on bare ground than does a good bare ground hound on snow.... Maybe not... So to answer your question yes I think a hound that wins on snow should be able to win on bare ground..... My point is there aren't many snow trials.... I am not claiming to have great snow hounds.... Just solid dogs...

[WELLS WOODS]

I see your point. It would be good to have more trials on snow. I guess the clubs in MI are trying to have thier trial in good weather so they will have a good turnout and avoid traveling on hazardous roads. We've had snow down here for Jessamine and Mid-Ky from time to time. The dogs seemed to run well on it the best I remember. One year I judged Mid Ky on ice. I figured the dogs would struggle, but they ran pretty well. The few times I've hunted on snow, it seemed like there would be days the dogs could pound on it and others when they had to slow down to control the line.

[SMITTY1233]

There are days on snow that are outstanding but there are far more on snow that are tough than outstanding... It seems like you get far better running on bare ground and way more consistent than you do on old snow.... IMHO only..... I can understand the hazardous conditons etc... In my mind I guess I want to trial and judge my hounds on the same conditions that I will gun them... I also understand your point that a good snow dog should be be able to win on bare ground and believe that they could... I just don't know how well a dog from down south would do if you brought them up here to run in the deep old crusty snow. I am sure after they had ran snow a few times they would make the adjustment just like they do on bare ground bad days....