Scoring a LP Dog in a Brush Pile

[rabbitatfarm]

This may not be the right board, but I hope it will generate some interest.

For those of us who trial in the snow belt, deep snow and brush piles represent a special challenge, although that may be true year around. Dog A goes into a brush pile and opens. He's put on the clock. The rabbit refuses to be flushed or is down a hole under the pile or otherwise inaccessible. Everyone believes there is a rabbit there. The three minutes runs out and the Dog A pulls a minus. I have seen dogs trying to pull small limbs and branches from the pile to get to the rabbit. It seems unfair to minus a dog that is working so hard and is confident there's a rabbit there, but he won't play the game. In an area with lots of brush piles a dog can minus out quick. How do you judges handle those situations? I know the rules, but judges also have some discretion.

Larry

[Casey Harner]

Sounds like Dog A gets a minus.


I was in a UKC trial way back when, my dog opens up and works the track, but the clock runs out on him. He was the only dog that could smell it. Before the clock ran out he went into a big strip of thorny briars and it seems he is ready to jump this rabbit as if the rabbit is very close and the scent is getting hotter. The clock runs out and no more than a tints of a second goes by that he jumps the rabbit up. The rules are the rules and I rightfully got the minus. I ended up getting beat by a dog that was swinging and skirting. There was 6 inches of snow on the ground as well and it was close to 10 degrees. With what the conditions was the judge let a lot of things go like the skirting and swinging. I love a big nose dog, but I also want one that knows when to keep his mouth shut as well.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Same thing happened to me years ago, my dog goes into a brush pile and strikes out comes a rabbit the size of a pocket knife. He cant run it minus 10. Sucks but happens.

[rabbitatfarm]

Maple Valley;

If you saw the rabbit, no matter how small, I would have protested. If the judge can award a jump/strike and NOT see the rabbit I can't see why he wouldn't award points when he can see it.

It is the rule and it is the game we play--I take my minuses as they come--but there should be some discretion/common sense for the judge to make the call. I don't know if the best dog wins if the rabbits don't play fair. Good dogs are going to work brush piles as hard as they can. I've heard of judges awarding strikes inside a brush pile if enough dogs hark in too, so there is some leeway. I guess it boils down to the dog convincing the judge he's got it, even if the rabbit won't play. If the rabbit is above ground, as in the first scenario, that's a bit different; brush/dozer piles are special circumstances. In a big brush pile I've seen it take dogs several minutes to get the rabbit out, if he comes out at all. I just think it's something that should be discussed. Maybe it's time for a "sanctuary" rule. Seems there used to be one. I hope the discussion continues.

Larry

[BB Beagles]

This is my opinion just as the next guy will have one. In any format there are guide lines. judges are supposed to abide by those set guide lines, not correct them as they see necessary. With that being said there are loop holes in diff formats, and people will find a way to use them. Is it right..... Prob not, but the wording or frame set of the rules can be dissected in diff ways. I would like some of the rules to be revised or updated, cause no format is perfect, but it can get more refined as we go along.

Here example somewhat like you said- Got a 5 dog cast. Dog A strikes in 3X. The judge can only see 3 of 5 dogs when this happens. The judge hollers to handlers" CALL IT", cause a judge can tell for a claim in a strike. Guy hollers GREEN! Judge gets to DOG A? with all for dogs being there, and DOG A is in a small sink hole, coming in and out. DOG A is only one that has been harking on and off. 3 min go by......

-In a judges point of view is like this, DOG A could jumped rabbit and ran straight in sink hole, so he could award 40 for jump/strike cause judge does not have to see the rabbit.
-or he could go with a strike because it does appear that he has holed a rabbit and it has went to dead track and award 10 points.
-on other hand with the judge hollered claim it, a man claimed his dog, he's on the clock, the judge doesn't know if it rabbit, squirrel, opossum, coon???? Which are not major off game, rabbit excempt. So he draws a -10.

I will say not all the time the best dog of the hour comes back a winner, not because they got out performed by others, but got beat by the rules itself.

[rabbitatfarm]

BB;

I agree with the "loop holes" in the rules. It doesn't even say that the judge has to "strike in" a dog. We've all seen those times when a young, over-eager dog may bark as soon as released. The judge knows that dog does not have a track and may choose not to put him on the clock. Other judges go right by the letter. "The judge shall be responsible for making all the calls in the field ...." Sounds like their might be a little room for discretion. The rules either need more "shalls" or fewer "musts." There are a lot of gray areas open to interpretation. Good discussion so far.

Larry

[Ole Mule]

Rules are rules and must be followed the same every time, time after time so everybody gets treated the same. But it doesn't always happen like that. Some get lucky breaks and some don't.

[rabbitatfarm]

The point of the rules should be that the best dog wins not to see how quickly a judge can minus a dog out. Some judges give a heads up and call "Dead Track!" if they bump a deer ahead of the dogs. Others try to get a deer chase to weed out the trash runners. A good judge needs to know the rules, have good judgement, and use reasonable discretion in applying both.

Larry

[jeremy rice]

rules arethe basis of all formats. and with that being said they must be followed. Had a cast last year that a judge let a dog squeak the whole dang hour. Now to me the rule states giving of mouth 3 times and must be struck. IT was clear that the dog had the whole cast messed up and all the dogs kept pulling to it. It should of been minused out instead it won the cast. All judges are different and I have the up most respect for the judges. I have hardly seen my dogs run in 2 years my wife and little girl run them and I judge every round. So I know what its like that's why I respect them and thank them even if I don't agree. I would of scored a strike and moved the dogsif they where in a hole n the brush. but I also don't walk dogs towards a bunch of deer in afield just to see who goes and who doesn't. Its about bringing the best dog back for that hour that goes by the rules. Its not about who you are or what you have done, its about the dogs when you are out there judging. Hope that all makes since keep having fun bring a youth and make new friends. If we all do that this sport will survive for as long as there is ground to run on

[rabbitatfarm]

Jeremy Rice;

I think that makes sense. If the judge feels there's a rabbit in the pile, he should be able to award a strike even if the rabbit doesn't come out. Especially if he has watched or knows the dogs and the strike dog is not prone to just barking for no reason. Maybe that's why judges are given so much authority to make a judgement call. My dog has minused out under these conditions and with another judge he might have received a positive score. What is a produced rabbit? Is it a rabbit that is physically moved or is it a track followed to a hole or other refuge? Could be under a car, trailer, brush pile, drain or irrigation pipe, etc. I'd like to see a more definitive description. Thank you for judging. It's thankless job, but without you we couldn't hold trials.

Larry

[Casey Harner]

The point of the rules should be that the best dog wins not to see how quickly a judge can minus a dog out. Some judges give a heads up and call "Dead Track!" if they bump a deer ahead of the dogs. Others try to get a deer chase to weed out the trash runners. A good judge needs to know the rules, have good judgement, and use reasonable discretion in applying both.

Larry

How many times have you seen a judge weed out the deer runners by taking them to a deer that they have seen??

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Well Casey i am guilty of that. I will march dogs right to them . Makes it a heck of alot easier to judge and a field trial aint no place to bring one. I never would sic them on a track merley walk them over it. Right or Wrong? You tell me.

[Casey Harner]

Well Casey i am guilty of that. I will march dogs right to them . Makes it a heck of alot easier to judge and a field trial aint no place to bring one. I never would sic them on a track merley walk them over it. Right or Wrong? You tell me.

I haven't seen it yet, but I haven't been in many little pack trials. I don't think its wrong because I am sure a judge don't want the winning dog to move on to later run a deer in the finals. I am sure some handlers will frown on it, but it is a way to weed out the trash. I am going to take my judge test for little pack and progressive pack.

[BB Beagles]

There are so many variables that can happen while out with a cast. To many to name, let alone type. Lol! But to me, that's kinda part of the excitement. The last comments were about deer. Wow, you can find a lot out by cast your judging if you have a deer come threw. Everybody, hoping all hounds will pay no mind to it, but I've seen lot of good talked about hounds be good hounds, till you see him blowing out after a deer. And if you do have s deer runner, sometimes you get a herd of (me toor's).

For a judge, when you do have a deer chase can be rough. They need to make sure they know who started it, plus know who else is harking in on chase. Now the others harking in May not be harking in on deer itself, but when harking in going to the deer runner. Going by rules those hounds will be scratched for off game.

If you have a hound go and check those hounds, and never hark in, and return to original hunting area, that hound shouldn't be scratched. (They never opened, they checked others same has a hound when they strike in on rabbit, and they returned)

Why can it be rough for judge. You let me know when you know a man who can run right beside a pack of LP hounds, let alone a whitetail deer, and see EVERYTHING that's gojng on. Judge has to make the best decession they can on the circumstance given.

[BB Beagles]

Here's another crazy example, but it's the rules.
You got 5 dog cast. Dog A,B,C,D,E. Your down to last 5 min of hunt. As of this time the dogs scores are
Dog A- 35 ( strike/check)
Dog B- 25 ( check)
Dog C- 10 ( strike)
Dog D- 25 ( check )
Dog E- 0.

Judge has all 5 dogs close in sight. Judges sees Dog E jump a rabbit, but Dog E doesn't know he has flushed a rabbit. Never opens never makes forward progress and goes toward other hounds in cast. After 3 min, judge hollers checks open.
Dog E comes back winner cause judge awarded him 40( Jump/Strike). Rules- you have to award strike pts on a jump.

To me is that bringing back best performing dog of hour... NO! Dog A just got beat by the rules. Is it anything to get mad about and throw a fit....No! If you going play the game ya have to go by set of guideline made. That's why to me it's always exciting when ya cuttem loose, you never know what's going to happen. My advice for anybody that field trials is to have a lot of integrity. For winning and especially for a lot of losen. Lol!