running loose

[bob huffman]

Was wondering how others felt about letting a dog run loose to train itself on rabbits. I seriously can't decide if it is good for a dog or not. I guess all dogs can be differant about differant things. I haven't had a lot of luck doing it except with mediocre dogs that needed constant running just to learn the basics. I would really like to know others experience with this and even if there are any field champions that were trained like this. Also would like to know if anyone had a dog break itself off deer by letting it run loose.

[Beagleman973]

I don't like letting a hound run loose because I feel they need to be watched and have faults corrected. A hound that runs loose without supervision can pick up a lot of bad faults that could have been corrected if caught early. Habits like backtracking, cold trailing, etc. Plus by running loose they don't learn to hunt with you and that's a big one! There's nothing that can make a hunting trip a failure than you're wanting to move to another area or section to hunt but your hound is no where near you because he's off hunting somewhere else. You need to teach your hound to hunt with you in the direction you're going, not a half-mile from where you are at. To come when you jump a rabbit. They can't learn this by running loose. And to answer your own question, I think by running loose it will intensify running off game and they will be harder to break in the long run.


Letting a hound run loose is like turning a bunch of ball players loose on the field and saying play ball. No game plan, no direction, no teamwork. You have to be running behind the hound to know what its doing...IMHO.

[Chuck Terry]

While growing up, I owned a few family pet/yard-dogs that basically trained themselves. You could still call them and handle them somewhat due to the fact they were pets. However, they were not what most people demand of a "trained" hunting companion. I shot rabbits over them but they came home by themselves as often as they came home with me! As to the deer breaking, that will work. However, you have to be willing to accept the fact that they may not make it home each time you turn them out. Between cars, coyotes, deer hunters, poison, wells, snakes, fences, and more, it is a wonder that any of them make it home! It is not only perilous for them but it is not really 100% right ethically if you consider that you will be willing allowing them to cross countless other people's property on the chase and the return. Buy an e-collar instead!

[Guest]

It is all in the hound,how they are breed and how intelligent they are.It works on deer breaking if you have one that prefers rabbits and it does not take away from a hound hunting with you,in my situation anyways and those that hunt with me can verify this,my hounds love to hunt with me and stay close if i am in the woods with them other wise they hunt on their own but when i cal them they come and hunt with me,anytime and anywhere i wish to hunt.I prefer to allow my young hounds to run free and get all the rabbit tracks they can at an early age,now if i get hounds from others i watch them close for a while to see if they have it breed in them and the intellingents to be allowed to run free,like some people that have to be keep under guard and caged up,also there are some hounds the same way and if i had such a hound that i had no confidence in to run free when i chose i don't need such a hound,to me that shows a dumb hound that can't think for them self and don't knw how to get back home safe and sound,but is a great way to weed out the dumb ones and you don't have to feed nor breed that in your pups-the dumbe ones can't find their way home.Remember back when you could turn lose a hound of any nature,rabbit,coon,fox ect, and if the hound got to far away or was to intense on the game it was running,you could come back later and the hound would be right where you let it out and it did not matter if it had ever hunted in that area before or not,somehow it knew how to get back to where it was releasted and be waiting for your return.So if you think i am barking up the wrong tree come run with me and i will show you how hounds hunt that run free most the time and how they act when i fire up the four wheeler and they line up waiting for me to go hunting with them or how they come when i call them.This to me is also a way to find out quick how much determination and day in and day hunt a hound has breed into it and how quick it can bounce back from total exhaustion waiting to do the same day in and day out.My wa= may not be for everyione,but they way it is done here. Have a great day and run some hounds.

[GUEST//REBEL]

It is all in the hound,how they are breed and how intelligent they are.It works on deer breaking if you have one that prefers rabbits and it does not take away from a hound hunting with you,in my situation anyways and those that hunt with me can verify this,my hounds love to hunt with me and stay close if i am in the woods with them other wise they hunt on their own but when i cal them they come and hunt with me,anytime and anywhere i wish to hunt.I prefer to allow my young hounds to run free and get all the rabbit tracks they can at an early age,now if i get hounds from others i watch them close for a while to see if they have it breed in them and the intellingents to be allowed to run free,like some people that have to be keep under guard and caged up,also there are some hounds the same way and if i had such a hound that i had no confidence in to run free when i chose i don't need such a hound,to me that shows a dumb hound that can't think for them self and don't knw how to get back home safe and sound,but is a great way to weed out the dumb ones and you don't have to feed nor breed that in your pups-the dumbe ones can't find their way home.Remember back when you could turn lose a hound of any nature,rabbit,coon,fox ect, and if the hound got to far away or was to intense on the game it was running,you could come back later and the hound would be right where you let it out and it did not matter if it had ever hunted in that area before or not,somehow it knew how to get back to where it was releasted and be waiting for your return.So if you think i am barking up the wrong tree come run with me and i will show you how hounds hunt that run free most the time and how they act when i fire up the four wheeler and they line up waiting for me to go hunting with them or how they come when i call them.This to me is also a way to find out quick how much determination and day in and day hunt a hound has breed into it and how quick it can bounce back from total exhaustion waiting to do the same day in and day out.My wa= may not be for everyione,but they way it is done here. Have a great day and run some hounds.

[wingpatch]

I will go along with Reb, My dogs are let out of there kennel ever night or day to run , if they come back in the yard without me calling i put them up. they are not allowed to lay around. These dogs mind well yet they hunt hard.They are tuff as nails & are ready to go anytime.
Wingpatch

[wingpatch]

I will go along with Reb, My dogs are let out of there kennel ever night or day to run , if they come back in the yard without me calling i put them up. they are not allowed to lay around. These dogs mind well yet they hunt hard.They are tuff as nails & are ready to go anytime.
Wingpatch

[Hunt6]

I agree with Rebel.If you are lucky enough to live in a place where you can let them run.I do and have much of my life as I've owned farms and had neighbors I hunted with.

What the heck can a dog learn up off the ground in a wire kennel or dog lot? Nothing.I let my pups have free run of the yard late in the day and at night.I've set up feeder buckets for coons and rabbits in the fall winter months that they can wonder by and jump game off of.

If you start with GOOD Breeding and cull the idiots instead of getting all mushy over them any bad habits can be cured in the good ones mostly.Given that you started the pup with proper yard work and use the tools necessary like a shock collar later.Other than that it's just spendng the "time" with the pups as they develop and giving the experience of freedom.A pup that has the good genes will break himself mostly if given the freedom to run.

Put simply don't like a mechanical dog.I want one that does it because he has the breeding to do it naturally and love doing it.
Hunt6 (David)

[BigB]

Bob, I judge quite alot and you can usually tell when a dog has been trained by just letting it run loose or you just sit on the tailgate. It's the ones that go off hunting on their own not worrying about anything going on around. At the trials i like to ask the name of the hound and will try to call the dog if he's going off in another direction . I cann't judge a dog that's out of hearing because he wouldn't come when called. I also do this to see how they handle for me. Alot of judges have to send their hounds out with strangers or a buddy while they're off judging so i like to see if the dog will come to his name. You can have the hardest hunting hound but if he's holding up the hunt because he keeps dissappearing and cann't be called in then i'll give it to the hound that hunts and handles . If you go to enough trials you can start to see the hounds that i'm talking about. Alot of times after the cast is over i'll ask the owner of a hound how the hound was trained. Most of the hardest handling ones are the ones that just get dropped off or run loose. You be the judge!!

[REBEL]

BigB--I have also judged many a trial and it is "NOT" proper in any style of competition i know of to Judge a hound the way you indicate you are Judging trials.You are to Judge the best hound on the ground for that day and that day "ONLY" if it handles or does not handle,but how it runs a rabbit,yet i have never seen a hound that ran a good rabbit that did not handle for its owner,now if a stranger was handling it there may be a slight problem but than "YOU" are to Judge how well it performed its duty running a rabbit and you have no reason to know the hounds name,it may not listen to a stranger nor come to a stranger,myself i hope mine will not come to a stranger,close enough for a stranger to get their hands on it and my bloodline most will not,yet i have other bloodlines that anyone can handle and get their hands on them.At a trial a Judge is not to handle a hound nor cal a hound,but have the marshall do the handling or ask the handler to handle their hound,am i not correct on this???and if the hound is not back in the pack within a certain time,once the owner is notified, he is timed out=correct??and if the hound keeps disrupting the chase it is disqualified--it is YOUR duty to Judge not control the pack nor individual hound,that is why you have marshalls and handlers.YOU also are not to Judge a hound on how it was trained or nor trained==remember the BEST hound for that day and that day ONLY,that is on the ground to be Judge for that cast.
To sum this all up,if you feel runing loose is improper way to train a hound in this manner,come see my hounds and in your opinion and the way you indicated here,you would get the idea my hopunds allways hunted with me and was never allowed out of my hunting area,cause when i hunt my hounds hunt with me,not me with them and i "NEVER" get in the brush to jump them a rabbit from day one nor will i ever,that is why i have hounds and they best be breed to go with the older hounds and learn from them cause all they are going to learn from me are proper yard training and kennel manners and how to listen when i make demands from them.
BigB post your name so i can make sure i never run a hound under YOU when and where you are Judging and if i just happen to,i can make a formal complaint to the proper association or indivduals in charge of such competition.I have never noticed in any rules where the way you are Judging is totally proper and if i have overlooked something please inform me of it and how i am to find such???Now Bev you can say i have my hackles up=this type Judging is why we have do nothing FC's that a lot of people take for real rabbit hounds and breed their good rabbit hounds to sorry hounds not worthy of an FC title.This post was not about Judging untill BigB got involved but guess now it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!No one i am sure lets their hounds run wild without some early puppy training before they are allowed to go with the older hounds and run looose so to speak,to put all the rabbit tracks possible in front of young hounds and allow the older hounds to teach the young hounds how to get in the bushs and jump their own rabbits the way they where breed to do.Am i ticked-am ticked at this typ e Judging,see it and don't care for it.[/quote]

[S.R.Patch]

Hounds, like children, needs guidance and correction. They long for your companionship and this froms the bond of being a hunting team and you being in charge of that team. Some, on their own will make it but most will not if left to their own accord. The curbing of mistakes & bad decission will help the young hound become more useful and prevent the forming of bad habbits before they happen. To turn them out to self hunt is to say to them, I'm not interested in being part of the team. To not be on hand when the scent may lay poor or not at all, to keep them straight on the proper game when the temptation may rise to riot on off game is more a reflection on the huntsman than the hounds, in my opinion. Years ago, when deer were not so pleantiful, old steady bitches would take their young from the barn out into the woods an fields and have them running well by that Fall, all this, on their own but the young once started this way always had a great desire to range far out from us, but that was our own fault and had to be corrected later, which would have easier been prevented, had we been there from the start. To myself, the viewing of young hounds starting and developing is as much a enjoyment as seeing the finished product in action. Who can know their hounds better than one who has seen the molding of the raw clay into the beautiful vase it has become ...Patch

[REBEL]

Patch i got to agree with you on some issues and i to love derby trials and seeing the young hounds when they first start and open on a track.I will not jump a rabbit for my hounds no matter how young i start them or they are ready to start and many times this will vary from pup to pup and breeding to breeding/bloodlines,but when the time comes,i spend lots of time with the hounds,young and old,during the early training and once the young hounds can stay with the older hounds and get their share of the rabbit i allow them to free roam or run loose,so to speak and by than we have formed a bond between us and they seem to want me to hunt with them but are eager to go with the older hounds when i turn them loose here on the farm and enjoy my presents in the field or here and show their affection as me being their master,so to speak,i rub them and play with them and treat them like royalty and you can see how much they enjoy my company,my hounds have the best of care,great conditions kennel wise,best of food-dry each day with fresh water,clean runs on concrete and fresh meat several times a week,not ticks or flea,regular wormings and they seem to know they got it made here and each time i send one off i am concerned how well it will be treated by someone else.I demand the best out of them cause i give them the best and they seem toknow we have an understanding and a bond between us,they either perform or i have to let them go with someone else and it is strange how it seems they understand that and some,no matter how hard they try, they just can't meet the demands,some go as pets and others go to hounds people that have less restrictive requirements.

[Bev]

Have one dog in the kennel that was allowed to roam the farm from the time he was a pup until we got him at 3 years. To say he was difficult to handle is the understatement of the decade. As far as running rabbits? Probably the best of any in the kennel; rabbit wise, coyote wise (can seem to navigate thru their areas without harm) and a ton of bottom to him. He has no quit. Couple "no quit" with "no discipline" and you get "won't quit without heavy discipline". This hound wasn't ready to come in in 4 hours or 5 hours or longer - not even to check in. He hunted extremely wide. Show him a long gun, however, and he was a different dog. He loved to sniff a dead bunny and knew what the gun was about so he was a pleasure to gun over.

Discipline in the purest sense is not punishment, so I don't want some to get confused. Discipline as in whatever it took to get him in when we wanted to leave, and fed his brain with the idea that the hunt was over when WE said it was over until it stuck. Stupid us. We got him about the time we started going to field trials and I handled this sucker in Little Pack (of all formats) everywhere from the small patches of weeds on Paul Webbs running grounds to the reclaimed mines down in southern Indiana. He ran my butt off because he didn't like being called in every two hours, much less every ten to fifteen minutes. I can't say as I blame him for the latter. Eventually this hound came around - took about 3 years, lol! Maybe it was old age sitting in, who knows?

I'd say train him to hunt with you and a pack first, to come in when he's told and know that he knows the lessons. Make sure he's trash-free or broke. I still don't know that I could just cut one loose and let him go, but I will agree that he will probably have more rabbit smarts about him than other hounds trained traditionally, and watching a self-conditioned dog is pretty amazing sometimes. Nothing equals hours on the rabbit.

[Bev]

Reb, you're talking AKC and BigB is probably talking ARHA. I can't see where BigB said anything out of line or against ARHA rules in his post. Even in AKC, you can't leave a pack to judge one dog unless they're on deers. You can in ARHA if that dog is the only one on the original rabbit jumped. I've seen many a judge frustrated at trying to keep the hounds together for equal scoring opportunity only to have one or two hounds that refuse to hunt with the pack. I commend him for wanting to keep the pack together by calling the dog in a bit, whether he knows his name or not. Dogs that hunt too wide or wander out of view can get lost and/or killed. Seen it happen too many times. Because of the above mentioned hound of mine, there would be times he would get so far out that I didn't have a prayer of catching him and putting him back in the race if another hound should strike. I also appreciate the judge that puts a hounds' safety above all else. The points aren't as important to me as going home with my dog at the end of the day.

[DarrinG]

I also bought a fine running little 12" bitch once from a fella who had let her and her littermates run loose on his farm. Man she was a rabbit machine. I kept her a little over a year and sold her. Hard head`est dog I ever tried to handle. What good is a dog to a hunter if the dog is over the next ridge running and wont hunt with the owner? Wont come in when called, wont mind any commands? She would not hunt with me for nothing. I kept her so long because of her running abilities and worked & worked, trying to break her to handle to no avail. A buddy of mine bought another one of the littermates and had the same problem, although his got ran over running a rabbit across a roadway before he had her long enough to spend lots of time trying to break her.

I would not condemn anyone who lets their hounds run loose, but personally I would never allow mine to, just from my past bad experiences.