What stud dog would you want a pup from?

Stumpy · Post by **Stumpy** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 5:37 pm

If you were buying a new pup, and looking for fast run to catch style dogs, what Sire would you be looking to get a pup out of? Would prefer them to be from the mid-west gundog association.

kybeagles · Post by **kybeagles** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 6:21 pm

Stumpy, I think it depends on what you want in a hound. Don't just base your thought on the stud alone, also take a look at the bitch side as well.

Big Dog · Post by **Big Dog** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:25 pm

I plan on breeding to either LP World Champion Waylons Bomb or his son LP World Champion Well's Big Bomber when my gyp comes in heat. (Sammy Wells doesn't know that yet)LOL The number one reason for this is that they are from the same bloodline as my dog, number 2 both are very good dogs. Be careful of just breeding to the hound that is the flavor of the year, or buying pups out of the hound that is the flavor of the year with no knowledge of the characteristics of the bloodline, health of the bloodline, or strentgh of the female. You may get a good pup out of a cross like that and you may not. The other thing is you may get a good hybrid dog that can't throw dogs that will be his equal or better. Base your decision on known things and you increase your chances for success, but remember there are no guarantees in breeding. For example here is what I know about the dogs listed above. Waylons Bomb is a Champion and a LP World Hunt winner. he has at least 3 full brothers from the same cross but different litters that are either hall of fame or GRRCHs(Big Time, Biff, Twin a Buck) He has Thrown a World Hunt Winner also(Bomber). His brothers have thrown countless GRRCHs, Champions, Hounds of the Year. My dog is line bred from the same breeding, If I breed her to Bomb I will be line breeding her to her uncle. My chances of getting some exceptional pups is good but not guaranteed of course. I have made this decision based on facts that I know about the line of dogs, not just one dog out of the line. The most important thing is doing your homework. These dogs could compete in the Mid West Gun dog association, but as with me there aren't as many clubs close by. Just my two cents

Big Dog

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:45 pm

Sure like the new board look!!

Bog Dog, did you say your dogs were medium speed on the other board? Are these studs you speak of mediums too?

Right now,I think I would breed to Indian Hills Trapper as I have been advised by some that have seen him run. I have a female that is without a single disagreement from any that have run with her, that is the fastest footed rabbit runner in these parts and she is Indian Hills Majer in her top and bottom. Also has Johnny Paycheck and New City Cruiser. She is 143/4 inches, long bodied, and is three years old.

I do not know about AKC pedigrees, so I do not know where her speed comes from. Maybe she is a throw back to some of the other less known dogs in her line.

I would like your opinions as well as to what to breed her to to get her type of speed and few checks. She has run down and caught over 40 rabbits now and had run down over twenty when I got her from Ted Peercy from Tennessee. Her sire is Marlboro Man, I understand he is also from Tennessee.

Where is the match for her???

John-PA · Post by **John-PA** » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:39 pm

Alabama John, I hate to tell you this but Indian Hills Trapper died today during emergency cancer surgery. I contacted RB Sester about pups and he told me the bad news.

Jamie Rice · Post by **Jamie Rice** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:27 am

Stumpy,

It would mainly depend on if I wanted to compete in the Midwest Association or not. Frankly if so I think that I'd be looking at dogs from that association rather than elsewhere. As to which I'd look at it'd mainly depend on what size of hounds that I wanted. A few of the sires that have shown they were producers have passed away, therefore... If I wanted 13" hounds, my first choice would be Blazing Trails Blue Smoke. Smokey isn't a champion, which seems to be what most people look for when picking pups. However I can honestly say Smoke is producing a heck of a lot nicer pups than some of the 13" champions in the Midwest are. That's not being rude, cruel, or whatever... that's just the plain truth. The only other 13" Midwest style hound in our association that's shown he's a producer and thrown half way decent pups is IFC Branko's Proper Baron.

As for big males, some of those that were good producers passed away this year(Turbo, etc). However currently the the males that I'd look at would be FC Brent's Prime Time, Near FC Wells' Timber(Prime pup), FC Smokes Creek Syris McGee, FC Rabbit Ridge New York Knick, Near FC Branko's Lumber Easy Rider, Near FC Ross' Little Trapper, & Shady Creek Tracker Jack. There's a few more, but those are the ones that come to mind first.

With sires aside, as a few other guys noted the dam shouldn't be ignored. Maybe I have weird outlook, but I think the dam gives you about 75% of the traits and the male 25%. Way I look at is you can take an awesome female and breed to a subpar male and still get halfway decent pups. However if you take an awesome male and breed to a subpar female you're not going to get much. Although in the end breeding awesome to awesome will give you the greatest chance for awesomeness.

Thanks and good day...

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Thu May 01, 2003 7:46 am

John, I am sure sorry.

I never saw Trapper run or met Mr. Sester, but they both made a big mark in the beagling world.

Now I do not know what sire to pick just as Stumpy.

Big Dogs choice seems real good and logical if they have foot speed in open running.

Foot speed is always subjective, but most dogs in my experience can gear DOWN as everyone has expressed they want one to do with brains to know when slowing down is necessary. More common by far here in our area though are dogs that cannot gear UP. Most dogs I have seen only have tractor type gears like grandmaw, 1st, and maybe 2nd or third gear on few occasions of scenting being exceptionally good. I only want ones that can and will gear down also, but can gear up from grandmaw to Corvette high 6th gear if the conditions allow.

That is why speed is so hard for us to describe to each other, it depends not on what gear you are in, but in what type vehicle that gear is in you are used to driving.

What stud now?

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Thu May 01, 2003 8:27 am

FC Short's Pro is throwing some very good pups, many placing and finishing. I have seen several from him, and in fact have it in my bloodline. Very fast, but smart enough to gear down when they have too. Close on checks, etc.

It would also depend on what trials if any you compete in. Pro stuff is doing great in midwest SPO as well as east coast and deep south SPO.

Just like the others said......the dam is just as important and the bloodlines, styles need to match to some extent. And of course, if it's a complete outcross you will be the recipient of hybrid vigor, but who knows what the next generation will bring.

jason_beagles · Post by **jason_beagles** » Thu May 01, 2003 1:17 pm

I have never heard that Pro is very fast. That's a new one on me. From everything that I have seen and heard on the ESPO board he is a med speed dog. Beagleman973 what do you call fast?

Alabama John I got that Trapper male that I told you about before. He is not what I call fast, but he is hard hitting. He is a agressive dog and I like it. I have had other agressive dogs, but they could not do it as good as he can. I guess that is why I no longer own those other dogs LOL!!! He has almost cought a few rabbit while running solo in the last few weeks. You can see him on my website "Woodpont Trader". I am sold on Trapper and I am sorry to hear that he past yesterday. I wanted to breed a dog or 2 to him next year.

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Thu May 01, 2003 1:26 pm

Jason, I'm talking about most of the pups out of Pro that I have seen. I've seen them crossed on several different lines, the best is probably Pudge. What do I call fast.....if they stay ahead of most any pack they're put with, I call that fast.

A friend of mine is trialing one now that is blazing fast....but extremely close and clean.

There may be hounds faster....but how clean are they? If a hound is fast, but loose on the line, guessing at checks, cutting, etc....he isn't fast, he's faulty.

jason_beagles · Post by **jason_beagles** » Thu May 01, 2003 1:52 pm

I agree about a faulty hound. I also like a SPO hound. I was just trying to figure out what you call fast. What type of breeding is in the packs that you are talking about? Also what is the bottom side of the blazing fast dog pedigree? Are they outcrosses with true fast dogs and the pups are taking after the mother? I have seen dogs that run in front of any pack you put them down with and do it right, but that does not make them fast. All of the Shorts stuff I know of is med or upper med speed.

It's funny how people getting into long talks with folks from other areas about speed. Every area has a different idea on speed. I have seen dogs that I call a slow med, but to another guy he is med-fast.

Happy Beagling!!!

Christine · Post by **Christine** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:20 pm

Fuzz, I agree with you, I like that Blazing Trails Blue Smoke. Maybe I'm biased but I'm hopefully getting a pup out of his full littermate, FC Blazing Trails Blue Diamond x FC Busters Knee High Sammy this summer. I was looking for a combination of things, good pedigree, conformation to the AKC beagle standard, I wasn't too concerned about speed. I'll take slow if the faults are a minimum, but I think the breeder said both Diamonds and Blue Smoke are medium speed, hard hunting. The reason the breeder (Earl Rice) chose Knee high Sammy to breed to was because he wanted a dog that hunted similar to Blue Smoke. I'm just starting out, when my kennel expands I'd love to breed to Blue Smoke because he has almost everything I'm looking for.

bowhunter59 · Post by **bowhunter59** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:39 pm

hey john if u be real nice i might leet u breed to tuf that red male i got u know he is a hoss u think ur female is faster than him u seen him run??????

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:45 pm

Beagleman:
What Short's Pro dogs are doing well in Midwest Spo?Thanks

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Thu May 01, 2003 2:55 pm

Jason,

You're right about defining speed. Everyone has a different opinion. I would qualify the ones I'm talking about in the medium fast range. Otherwise, you have slow, medium, upper medium, fast, medium fast, and just plain FAST!

The bottom of the blazing dog is Gass' Gator Keg.

As you know, genetics are the key to what a hound does, and it just seems to be showing Pro with the right crosses is throwing some pretty quick hounds with good line control. The biggest problem I have personally seen with the Pro line is they don't have as much hunt as I would like.....but when crossed with Pudge stuff, "Blue K Pudge", Farler's Rogue, etc. they seem to have the total package.

My point of view still stands that if the hound is consistently in front and doing it right, he's fast. The hound has to be able to gear down when conditions warrant.

The other thing I have heard, and like most things you hear, it's probably not true....but around here in the midwest they claim they send the slower more conservative hounds to the east coast, and keep the faster hounds to compete here. If that is true about Pro, that might explain what you have seen, but like most things you just "hear" people say, it's probably not true.

Keep 'em running!

John

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