Puppies, Breeding and MONEY????

[t-city kennels]

I think you should buy or breed what you like, and hope for the best. I have a certan ped that I like, not everybody likes my style, but I do and thats what matters. I do sell a pup or two out of every litter to pay for the akc paperwork. Everyone wants the next best thing, and you never know where it is going to come from, reg., or a grade dog. People think just because a dog wins trials, the pups will to, so they pay the big money. I dont hold that against the breeders, get all you can, but before you buy a pup, you should know what you are getting. Watch the parents run, and then make your decision.

[JCM]

i have hunted with some of these high titled hounds mostly coon hounds and have found that many of don,t impress me enough to breed to them, some have been very good however, but most of the times i would rather breed to one i own that i have hunted

I think the pedigree is extremely important, but I think your point is the key. To really know a dog, and how he/she might produce, you have to have hunted over them, and ran them in every imaginable condition.

If I have hunted over a dog and kept him for several years, he obviously is something I like. This increases the odds tremendously that I will like his offspring.

[Rabbithoundjb]

Patch I completely disagree, that piece of paper don't make that dog a lot of hard work does and I have probably seen more of the dogs in the family of my grade dogs run than most of the people on this board have seen off of their dogs pedigree and I'm fairly sure the grade dog came before the registry and a good electrician can repair a machine without a schematic and someone that knows what they are looking for can breed quality dogs without a pedigree. I am amazed by people today that have to have someone else do their thinking for them.

[Bev]

I am amazed by people today that have to have someone else do their thinking for them.

I see it as just the opposite. To ask for a pedigree and to examine a dog's pedigree before making decisions to buy or breed is akin to asking for a service record on a used car that one is considering buying. I think it's using your noodle. If the service history comes back and the transmission has been repaired on 3 different occasions, I'm going to pass on the car. Do you think the seller would have just offered up that information? You may not have seen the dogs in the pedigree run yourself, but if you know people who have judged those dogs or hunted with those dogs, and you trust their judgement, you have a better idea of what to expect.

The pedigree is not just to find champions in the background, it's also to find the "bad transmissions" in the service history of the dog. It's not having someone else do your thinking. It's thinking ahead. It's a matter of doing your homework, getting informed, and avoiding costly mistakes.

If Farmer Brown takes his best two grade dogs and breeds them, and all the puppies turn out to be crap, is he going to keep breeding them? No. He's going to make a mental note (and hopefully a written note) "don't do that again. These two don't reproduce like kind." If after a few generations he learns what crosses well and which dogs to avoid, he has essentially done the same thing. He has considered the dogs' "pedigrees", even if they weren't written on paper.

Me, I prefer to see the pedigree in black and white first. Memories alone tend to fade, and owners of dogs tend to be biased. I want a dog from a lineage that has seen generations of public scrutiny and still passed the test. I'm not about reinventing the wheel. There are bloodlines of dogs out there where the hard work has already been done, the failures have been noted, and those are the dogs I'm looking for in the pedigree.

[JUDE]

I am amazed by people today that have to have someone else do their thinking for them.

I see it as just the opposite. To ask for a pedigree and to examine a dog's pedigree before making decisions to buy or breed is akin to asking for a service record on a used car that one is considering buying. I think it's using your noodle. If the service history comes back and the transmission has been repaired on 3 different occasions, I'm going to pass on the car. Do you think the seller would have just offered up that information? You may not have seen the dogs in the pedigree run yourself, but if you know people who have judged those dogs or hunted with those dogs, and you trust their judgement, you have a better idea of what to expect.

The pedigree is not just to find champions in the background, it's also to find the "bad transmissions" in the service history of the dog. It's not having someone else do your thinking. It's thinking ahead. It's a matter of doing your homework, getting informed, and avoiding costly mistakes.

If Farmer Brown takes his best two grade dogs and breeds them, and all the puppies turn out to be crap, is he going to keep breeding them? No. He's going to make a mental note (and hopefully a written note) "don't do that again. These two don't reproduce like kind." If after a few generations he learns what crosses well and which dogs to avoid, he has essentially done the same thing. He has considered the dogs' "pedigrees", even if they weren't written on paper.

Me, I prefer to see the pedigree in black and white first. Memories alone tend to fade, and owners of dogs tend to be biased. I want a dog from a lineage that has seen generations of public scrutiny and still passed the test. I'm not about reinventing the wheel. There are bloodlines of dogs out there where the hard work has already been done, the failures have been noted, and those are the dogs I'm looking for in the pedigree.

Excellent post


Buddy

[wvduece]

i will jump back in for one short statment,my first time at going to a trial it was a UKC hunt i took a 6 y/o grade female n got her registered before the hunt got drawed with 3 top houndsmen in our aera one guy rode with us he kept telling me what his young pup had won and what all was in his background i was getting a lil intitameted about turning my lil grade dog out well we got to where we were gonna hunt let the dogs go that papered dog was never in any of the runs that morning my lil grade dog spanked the whole cast bad i have kept up on a few of these dogs that was in the cast that morning most have gone on n made GRAND CHAMPION dogs my lil female went on to the winners pack and spanked the winners pack just like she did in her cast she has been in 3 hunts n has a first and a second only needs 25 pts to champion out in UKC annways getting back to my short story lol after she won her first hunt several people were trying to buy her and you know who some of them were the guys that had the big papered dogs and one guy offered me 800 dollars for my lil grade female she is not only a good rabbit dog she is a great reproducer as well jb

[jonnyringo]

Bev,
WOW! You stated very eloquently what I think many of on here have been trying express.

[wvduece]

one more thing i really like this post ive read every word that has been written now people dont get me wrong im not close minded to think that theres no good dogs that papered ive have run with some great ones, i just bred one of my females n she is a grade dog or should i say she has no papers as i never registered her but i had her parents also watched her grand parents run several times i bred my grade female to a dog that has a very impressive background n throws pups that are better than he is i have run with his pups and they are awsome the dog i bred to is a SPEEDY SPORT male, hoping to get some REDTICKS jb

[jonnyringo]

i will jump back in for one short statment,my first time at going to a trial it was a UKC hunt i took a 6 y/o grade female n got her registered before the hunt got drawed with 3 top houndsmen in our aera one guy rode with us he kept telling me what his young pup had won and what all was in his background i was getting a lil intitameted about turning my lil grade dog out well we got to where we were gonna hunt let the dogs go that papered dog was never in any of the runs that morning my lil grade dog spanked the whole cast bad i have kept up on a few of these dogs that was in the cast that morning most have gone on n made GRAND CHAMPION dogs my lil female went on to the winners pack and spanked the winners pack just like she did in her cast she has been in 3 hunts n has a first and a second only needs 25 pts to champion out in UKC annways getting back to my short story lol after she won her first hunt several people were trying to buy her and you know who some of them were the guys that had the big papered dogs and one guy offered me 800 dollars for my lil grade female she is not only a good rabbit dog she is a great reproducer as well jb

That is awesome but wouldn't it be better if you had her registered and a five generation pedigree? I am sure many would like to get a pup out of a bitch that wonderful. Many will not be interested in a pup because she is grade. Or if it was a dog, look at the price and the demand you would have in such a great producer. Again, most will not breed to a grade stud. I think there are some great grade dogs out there but it is better for the breed if we keep them registered and provide honest pedigrees. Like Bev said, not just to see how many champions are in the ped but to look at running style, proven history, etc.

[wvduece]

johnnyringo your right if had it to do over but you know hindsight is 20/20 but after about 50 years of just hunting i never even thought of having a dog registered because i didnt trial i only got interested in pedigrees about 3or4 years ago but i have great memorys of my past hounds reg or not i still have no problems getting rid of any pups sometimes people still wants to breed to one of my male dogs but they are hunters not trialers the posts have been very imformtative to me i have learned alot from reading everyones experince keep sharing your experince i love reading n learning thanks everyone for sharing jb

[jonnyringo]

i have learned alot from reading everyones experince keep sharing your experince i love reading n learning thanks everyone for sharing jb

As have I and thanks for your perspective. Sounds like you have some nice hounds and much experience in beagling.

[Rabbithoundjb]

I will only say again (if you did not see those dogs on the ground you are basing your decision on what someone else thinks) and that applies to both the grade dog and the registered dog. In fact I would say that most rabbit hunters have seen more of the linage of their grade dogs run (by far) than your registered dog owners have. There's nothing wrong with the idea of registering dogs if it is done for the right reason. I have 2 running Branko bloodline dogs but make no mistake about it there not as good some of my grade dogs.

[Alabama John]

Most folks on hera re not as old a beagler as I am. It tickles me when I see folks at trials looking at the AKC papers and telling about some of the dogs on there, especially the Champions, many of them I saw run and somehow we must have been looking at a different dog.

Papers go for $25.00 to $50.00 each at the trade days here depending on which registry and bloodlines. Same deal, but higher price than in the 40's and 50's.
I'll breed to what I have hunted with that had traits I want, grade or surprise me and tell me its registered.

[danny vansickle]

i agree pedigree is important,but don't base your decision of what to bree to what soaly on the pedigree.so many times i here people say,"well this dog has turbo in it twice and ace in it three times so if i breed it to this dog with ace and jack in it and a lil spur,the pups will be very nice"

what is the dogs have no hunt and are slow as heck,just because they have big names won'[t make nice pups.

that is what kills me,i have seen dogs with million dollar pedigrees that aint worth the powder to shoot them.

it is like the ads i have seen on here,people selling pups out of dogs that are bred like reggie or prime time or other big dogs,just cause they are bred the same does not mean your gonna get the same thing,if you are tryin to sell pups that are bred like reggie or chester,or junie,ect. why not just breed to the actual dog than his brothers or uncles ect.just cause you breed to a dog with the same breeding as a big name dog does not mean your gonna get the ame results,it is all about dna and cromosones,take reggie for instance,he is out of turbo and blue girl,well he has so many traits he got from his sire nad so mant y from his dam,now his brother got the same parents but that does not mean he has the same traits as reggie.

for example,everyone knows reggie throws sometimes small dogs,right.

well louises blue man throws big dogs almost all the time.

my point is this if they throw different size dogs,well it is safe to say they throw different foot speed,hunt,check power,ect.

so just because they are brothers,they are not going to throw the same things in theirr pups.

[Bev]

I can't be sure, but I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested to make a breeding soley on the pedigree.