Lesson Learned...

[warddog]

OPINIONS all opinions as I doubt there is a single expert on beagle genetics. There are those with the vast experience(s) that someone such as E.F. Hutton would have but that does NOT make them experts nor do they profess to be. They also do not come on here to run folks down. No need to mention names as the E.F. Huttons are also well aware of those trying to help people with their experiences and opinions formed over great periods of time and those trying to ACT like they know something having been involved for a few years.
Seems some continuously try to sabotage a thread and make little digs personally at others which is obvious to those that have been on this site for any length of time.

This will be my last response to any such digs at me from any poster on any thread, period, as I've got better things to do, like try to help folks with opinions bound in experience not want-to-be's trying to make themselves appear to have something of value to offer a conversation. Arguing over opinions is fruitless and trying to belittle someone is childish at best and of absolutely no value.

Thank you to those who have PM'd me to let me know how obvious these things are and they do not need my response which will not happen again. From this I digress as a better man.

[littlewoody]

Since my email was quoted at the beginning of this thread, I guess I should chime in.

For those that don’t know me, I have followed these little hounds through the woods for 38+ years now. Have had at least 1 patch bred hound here since the winter of 1975/76, and since 1993 all my hounds came from or descended directly from the Patch kennel in New York of Mike Capozzi. (Mike became like a second father to me.) I am very passionate, like most of us, about the hounds. I have spoke with many great beaglers of the past such as the late Butch Keene and Tom Dornin (I still have those letters written in green ink) as well as several notable beaglers of today. I have picked the brains of many well known breeders and field trial judges and even some AKC conformation judges. I have an AKC judge’s # and a PBGA show judge certificate. I have seen many hounds run, some outstanding, some terrible and many in between. Beginning in 2010, I became partners in the Patch AKC registered kennel with Mike until his passing in 2014. Before his passing, Mike’s hounds all came here, as well as all the records of the kennel from Willet’s time. After Mike’s death, it has been me carrying on.

First off, that email was sent to the email address Charles provided to me. I don’t give MY wife’s email out for beagle purposes.

Secondly, the email was sent in response to several pm’s that were sent to me by Charles, not the thread on another forum as was mentioned. I sent an email so that I could attach some photos for Charles to view and respond to (which he didn’t). Instead of answering the questions, he stomped his feet like a petulant little school girl and posted my email to a public forum, assuming people would pile on me for speaking the truth. Charles says about his banishment from the Hunted Hare that Norwester should have posted the entire thread, not just pick and choose but that is exactly what he did posting my email without background. By posting my email to a public forum, it is unquestionably an attempt to drag me down. (It is a small man that tries to make himself greater by trying to tear others down.) It has been interesting how this thread has gone.

The pm conversation started as a civil discussion, Charles mentioned some faults in hounds (cherry eye, crooked legs, epilepsy etc) that worried him and made him afraid to breed outside of his circle. I agreed and added a few more faults that concern me. Well… Charles fired back a pm blasting hounds in an article 25 years ago that he believed had every fault that I mentioned. I was taught to not start fights but end them, hence the email.

The response from Charles revealed a lot about him. For the past 20 years, Charles has spoken about the greatest trip of his life going to New York and Beaver Meadows. Mike was gracious enough to take Charles to Beaver Meadows (Charles’ Holy Land) and show many things to Charles pertaining to Willet and the early Patch hounds. Now that Mike has passed, Charles could not wait to disparage him. I believe it is very disrespectful to wait to downgrade someone’s hounds until after they are gone and especially someone who went out of his way to be kind to you. Mike is no longer alive to defend himself, so I defended him with facts (as well as my opinions). What do you think Mike’s reaction was after Charles went to North River, snooped around, fished for information but did not buy a pup from him and then Mike saw Charles’ multitude of internet posts calling himself “SR Patch”? As recently as a few days ago, Charles is mentioning Mike’s widow in a post, still trying to align himself with them even after his criticism. Mike and his wife were onto Charles many years ago. Charles is a polar opposite of Mike and his family.

Charles says he has no animosity towards me and the very next sentence says “…have you read what Chris has said about others?” He has shown nothing but animosity toward me since the time he learned that I had the AKC registered kennel. I have been called many things and Charles has implied that I conned my way into the kennel. Nothing could be further from the truth. From Charles’ high horse, he honestly believes that he is superior to everyone and only he knows how to breed quality hounds (and only he can deliver wisdom in the form of riddles and rhymes, original or plagiarized.) His Psalm quotation did not surprise me either as Charles believes he is the savior of the beagle breed. Charles has downgraded many hounds and breeders but once his own hounds were crossed into that line suddenly the hounds were superior. (Yes Charles, I save emails as well, and I have your email about Pearl, but once your Sugar Ridge was bred into Pearl she was then ok. Same with Plowboy, all the sudden after Bossman, Plowboy was doing “great” things, in my opinion, the worst kind of kennel blindness.)

As far as the Patch name, from where did Charles acquire his information that Mike was OK with others using it? I know the story here and have the letters to and from AKC to prove that Mike did NOT find it ok for some to use the name. Charles shouldn’t state his own opinions as facts. Do you honestly think that Willet, or Mike (or myself) would be making the crosses that some guys are making and calling them patch? I know for a fact that is not the case. Before Mike died, (he knew it would be the last time we spoke) he told me to take care of the hounds for him & Willet and to protect the Patch name.

All I will say about Willet’s & Mike’s breeding choices is to look at the pedigrees. Where in Willet’s writings did he say not to outcross? He did state that he had the best success when he stuck closest to his original lines but study the pedigrees and you will see what he meant. For them, it was all about the hounds, not the way a pedigree looked or how many times someone could put their name in a hound’s pedigree or if it only said patch up and down. Look in Wilderness Patchwork, you will see Sister Girl, Jeff Cole and others. How about Rattler Patch or Willa? Do you know the pedigree on those hounds Charles? Like Bill (flint river) said, (validating many of the points I was making):

guys have line bread and inbread the hounds to death to keep the look

Although Bill (flint river) talks in circles,

the patch name was bull crap

and if i would have kept TAZ he would have ben called shafs flint river patch TAZ.

I would like to know if Bill has ever seen a hound from the Patch Kennel or just the knock-offs? He also states that the patch of today are not what they were in the 80s. Again, I believe he is speaking of the knock-offs. That is because they (the patch wackos) have gotten further and further away from the original hounds, literally (more generations/selections away from Willet) AND in both type and field work. Mike and the original Patch kennel have stayed true to the vision and standards of Willet.

Bill (flint river) also says everyone else is too sensitive, but I believe Charles is too thin-skinned. He can try to dish it out but can’t take it. “…It shook me to the bone” and he “was hurt and upset” that someone finally said what obviously many had been thinking.

So enlighten us Charles, what patch hounds are you breeding into your “patchwork” hounds? Tell us about the pictures I included in the email, what are your opinions on that quality?

I personally could not care less what the wise ole sage Charles Aldridge says or thinks about me. I’ve got a kennel full of beautiful, quality hounds that also don’t care what riddles or slander he utters. Some people just have diarrhea of the mouth.

http://www.thepatchkennel.com

Great post !

[S.R.Patch]

First off, that email was given to you a long time ago because I thought we were friends, it was more than a dog thing to me. My email on here and everything dog, I've posted many times as srpatch@yahoo.

Secondly, It was never insinuated that this had anything to do with the thread on the hunted hare, The pm's were sent to try and help you because of the epilepsy when I saw you had crossed on a hound descending from it, you and Josh both got those pms.

The pictures you sent were of a "foot" and a "rear quarter", since you said "we can't make out every thing from a picture" I didn't know how to answer. My reply about the hounds in the book were not to blast them, but to give and honest opinion, I'm sorry but I didn't like them, but the hounds I'd gotten and seen from other patch breeders were much better in look and conformation abd their pedigrees held true to patch linage. I also think the multiple branko infusions have helped your hounds also.

My trip to North Creek and Beaver Meadows was one of my greatest journeys. Mike tested me to see if I was just "snooping around" and I passed the test. I had talked to Mike a few times about getting a pup and his reply was always the same, "I'm not breeding any more but maybe in the future". Mike was not an internet person, How would he see "multitudes" of internet post, unless some little worm was crawling into his pocket.
Chris I really have no animosity towards you, in fact, i feel sorry for you, You got a big job on your hands
Since you went and saw Buckeye at Darrel's , I would assume you saw Peal also? Pearl was a beautiful made hound, I'd giver her a 8 out of 10, but she did have a reverse scissor bite. The lower jaw was not extended but the teeth slanted wrong to scissor backwards.
We had bred Casey to Lehners Lucy to get bossman, I got my Lucy as a stud pup. Imho, crossing the Stupe onto Yates made a good blend of drive, line and checkwork. My opinion was, and I told Terry this, to much Yates made the hounds "stall", I liked the hunt and drive from Stupe mixing to two. Terry went on to find more patch hounds from other old breeds to revive what he liked in his hounds.
Chris, I don't know your hounds, I only remember when you wanted me to breed Ivory bitch to your male, but from the picture and they way you described him, it wasn't the way I wanted to go.

I don't pretend to know what Mike was thinking about the patch name being used, only that he knew the rules governing paying to register the name to prevent it from being used. He really seemed to like being able to trace some of the modern patch hounds back to the patch kennel.

As far as the breeding of Willet, he had long proved the Bluecaps from his friends blended and improved his hounds after all, they were all from the early imports from England. Mike did question Willets breeding and it was put in the book, point in case was Swift Eagle. Mike question using him at stud when he felt they had better choices, but Willet told him, "will you just trust 70 yrs of breeding these hounds, I know every hound in his pedigree to Adam and if there's anything to the powers of heredity he'll make me a happy daddy".
Willet had about gotten out of the hounds when he got Rattler from Gorman, matter of fact, he sent Rattler down to Mike Yates when he was shipping him his last hounds. Yates and Willet had established a great report between themselves and Willet trusted Mike with what he called "his pets". These were the last and he made Mike promise that they would pass to no others when he was done with them.

I am not thin skinned and as long as truth and honesty are being told I'll stand toe-to-toe, I only have the "knock-offs" and being one of the "wakos", I liked the picture of the hounds Willet painted in his writings. I also believe in the powers of heredity Willet spoke of and I believe sticking to those descending is a far cry better than outcrossing and trusting many others who've had their hands on the mixing.
I would love to see some hounds from the patch kennel but they seem to be a secrete and hid away from view or maybe there's not that many of them tho they're said to be my neighbors.
The "wackos" have bred ours and put them out there, I have only those to thank for what I have. Tell us, where might we go to see these patch kennel images of hounds and awe at their abilities? What hounds are you breeding into your patch kennel hounds now? Maybe some show blood would fix little Duffy's feet and give him some leg.

Oh, and the next time you hear that "Northwind " blowing , don't leave you head under the covers so long...

[cpuckett]

Boy i thought my 2 kids argued alot. Im taking them out for ice creame after reading all this CRAP.

[likeemfast]

OPINIONS all opinions as I doubt there is a single expert on beagle genetics. There are those with the vast experience(s) that someone such as E.F. Hutton would have but that does NOT make them experts nor do they profess to be. They also do not come on here to run folks down. No need to mention names as the E.F. Huttons are also well aware of those trying to help people with their experiences and opinions formed over great periods of time and those trying to ACT like they know something having been involved for a few years.
Seems some continuously try to sabotage a thread and make little digs personally at others which is obvious to those that have been on this site for any length of time.

This will be my last response to any such digs at me from any poster on any thread, period, as I've got better things to do, like try to help folks with opinions bound in experience not want-to-be's trying to make themselves appear to have something of value to offer a conversation. Arguing over opinions is fruitless and trying to belittle someone is childish at best and of absolutely no value.

Thank you to those who have PM'd me to let me know how obvious these things are and they do not need my response which will not happen again. From this I digress as a better man.

Once again you take childish jabs and try and turn the tables and point the finger in the other direction. It is so plainly simple for all to see but yet you try and take the high road. You say you are done and have turned the other cheek and wont respond again but yet you keep responding. How many cheeks do you have? If you were to have a Indian name it would be "Man with 12 Cheeks" or possibly "Old Long Wind" for you say you turn the other cheek and dont but yet cant help but come back taking jabs and bore us with your long dissertations that are much ado about nothing. Blah blah blah blah blah

Its obvious for all to see. I posted a comment about Patch and Man with 12 Cheeks starts his banter, i post again and again am ridiculed by 12 Cheeks. Its obvious who is after who, all ya have to do is look.

Im glad your done, from my count you turned 3 cheeks in this thread alone and 7 others in the past couple months. Your down to 2, take them your ball and bat and go home and play by yourself. Keep dreaming your a all-star, and that we all think so to, not just you in your own mind.

Come back and play again soon

[adirondackjoe]

can't we all just get along?-the late rodney king. RIP (although i'm not sure if he owned beagles).