FLAVOR OF THE MONTH

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Seems like this topic has brought out two separate lines of thought and I believe both have equal merit.
I guess in my first post I introduced one, by stating that trial wins and Field Trial champion degrees are not inherited.Meaning that no matter how good an individual may be himself,if he can't reproduce his likeness and pass along the genes that made him what he is than he is not of much value as a stud hound.Others shared similar thoughts or experiences with titled studs that didn't produce,crosses that didn't click and the quote from an old timer"all rabbit dogs are not stud dogs and all stud dogs are not rabbit dogs" rings very true.
The other line of thought seems to revolve around the F.C. title with several indicating that they would breed to a titled hound first and foremost every time and the thought seems to be that what they have accomplished/proven gives them more worth as a stud than the hounds that have not had that opportunity for what ever reason.
Don't get me wrong.I'm certainly not here to take any thing away from any hound that has accomplished titled status through his competition success and achieved a Field Champion degree. But we're not talking about his performance here.We're talking about reproduction.Specifically his ability to reproduce as good as or better than himself.If I were considering two litter mate males as a first time stud, that were identical in their abilities,looks,etc. and one had been trialed and made F.C. and the other one was strictly gun hunted, than all things being equal,like 99% of you I'd breed to the F.C. dog.Why? The F.C. title helps you sell pups,right? Every body knows that !
I've always been a firm believer in "the pedigree doesn't prove performance,performance proves the pedigree". So I really appreciated mn beagleboy and sparkey when they both listed a half dozen hounds that not only were at the top of their game in field trial competition but also were some of the absolute top reproducers in beagling over the past 25 years.There's no way these hounds could ever be described as "flavors of the month" their influence is still showing up in the better class of hounds to this day .Staying power is one way you can judge a reproducer by when you see their influence in the 3'rd and 4'th generations.
F.C. Jack of all Trades certainly was no flavor of the month.He never hit his first field trial until he was almost 8 years old.Jack was dead before his sons and daughters started to really show what reproducing power he had.He produced Better Beagling magazine's High Hound of the Year three years in a row; '93 Blue Ninja,'94 Lumberjack,'95 Magic Touch [also a National Large Pack Champion],Ninja's litter mate sister Mimi [also a NAT.L.P.Champ. ] and don't forget I.F.C. Heli-Prop.
I.F.C.Ninja was Better Beagling mags. Top 15"male hound award winner in '93,became an International F.C.,was named B.B.'s Top Sire in '97 and '98. Went on to sire 2 x National Large Pack Champion F.C. Blue Barry,Nat.L.P.Champ.F.C. Little Bit of Pepper and Nat.L.P.Champ. Dixie Hill Belle.His influence continues 21 years after his death in I.F.C. and World Champ.Reggie and 3 x B.B. mag's.Top Dam award winner F.C. Green Bay Blue Bay.
I.F.C. Ali-Baba was B.B.mag's. Top Sire in '95 and '96,was 2'nd behind Ninja in '97,was 3'rd in '98 and was Top Sire again in '99.
I.F.C. Ranger Dan was B.B. mag's. Top 13" male hound award winner in'98 and '99.He was B.B. mag's. Top Sire for 6 consecutive years from 2000 -2005.This was not only a phenomenal reproducing stud but a top performer also having 30 1'st place wins and he completed the requirements for both his A.K.C. and C.K.C.field titles 4 x's over !!
I.F.C. Striker was B.B. mag's. 2'nd place Top Sire in '01 and '02 [behind Ranger Dan ] and tied with Dan for 1'st in '03.He was 2'nd in '04,4'th in '05 and 4'th in '07.
I.F.C. Shaker was B.B. mag's. 3'rd place Top Sire in '01 and '02 [ behind Dan and Striker ], 3'rd in '03 and tied for 4'th with Striker in '05.
I.F.C. Green Bay Shooter was B.B.mag's. 2'nd place Top Sire in '08,1'st place in'09,tied with Viagra for 2'nd [behind Reggie ] in '10,4'th in '11 and 4'th in '12.
I.F.C. Reggie was B.B. mag's. 2'nd place Top Sire [behind Shooter ] in '09,1'st in '10,1'st in '11,1'st in'12,5'th in '13,5'th in '14 and 4th in '15.Reggie's dam is a grand daughter to Ninja on her top and bottom sides.I believe Reggie is the only World Champ. to sire a World Champ.
I.F.C. Viagra was Better Beagling's 4'th place Top Sire in '08,5'th in '09,2'nd in '10, 2'nd in '11,2'nd in '12,1'st in '13 and 1'st in '14.not only was Viagra a super reproducer but a tough competitor at the trials.He took 2'nd at the '04 International Beagle Hare Futurity.Won the Canadian Large Pack Nationals and the following weekend took 2'nd at the A.K.C. L.P. Nationals.Viagra was a grandson to Haunted Hill Shaker.
These above hounds are what the "flavor of the month" isn't .All of these hounds maintained their positions as top stud hounds for 5-6 years and long after the competition careers were over.In fact all of these stud's influence can be seen in many of the top hounds of this era.
As John Way mentioned in his previous post rather than breed to the "flavor of the month" try to breed to the "line of the decade".
As I looked at the General Services board on this site tonight I counted 41 stud dogs being advertised.As I was looking through the past 20 years of Better Beagling mags. I noticed probably a 100 more that have been advertised at stud and some who have appeared on the cover of the mag. over that period of time.Go on other sites and you see bunches more.I've not seen any that weren't Field Champs or Rabbit Champs or Hunting Beagle Champs advertised as studs. Even though they have achieved success on the competitive level and become titled hounds, most of these hounds will NOT make their mark on the beagling world as reproducers or as the above hounds have as real cornerstones/foundations of the breed.Some will but not many."Flavors of the month" are many and come and go but hounds like the above whose influence is seen into their grand and great grand pups is rare indeed.
If you still think that just because a hound is a big winner he'll be a good stud candidate you might find the following interesting.
In a recent article in the Thoroughbred Daily News columnist Andrew Caulfield stated"WE have to go back nearly 25 years to find the last Kentucky Derby winners to make successful sires".
I found this incredible ! Considering the Ky.Derby is the world's biggest horse race you've got to know that the winner gets retired to stud as a 3 year old and the absolutely BEST BRED mares in the WORLD are brought to them over the next 20 years.Stud fees are in the six figure range so you know that nobody is bringing less than the best and expectations are high for the foal.Unlike what often happens in our beagling world where guys think that for $200.00 they can as Hare Chaser mentioned "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and when it doesn't result in a pen full of top prospects they'll "blame it on Reggie".
There have been 140 Kentucky Derby races run since 1875 which means we've had 140 winners.Only 11 of those winners have been able to themselves produce a colt to win the Derby.And that is after the very highest quality mares from all over the world have been shipped in to them and some of the studs have sired over a thousands foals !!
Unbridled was the last one to do it.He won the Derby in 1990 and his son Grindstone did it in 1996.
Before that it was Seattle Slew who won the Triple Crown in 1977 and his son Swale won the Derby in 1984.Twenty years in between and twenty years since it was last accomplished.
It is commonly accepted in the world of thoroughbred racing horses that 5% stakes winners to foals is considered the borderline for a good sire/stud.Considering that the expectation is ALL foals sired by a Ky. Derby winning stallion will have some type of racing career in their future I find that 5% a very low expectation of results.With our beagles where many pups from prospective litters may never see a field trial and spend the entire lives as a gun dog even when breeding Field Champions are our odds of field success any better?
In an above post Newt made some comments along the line of a Field Champion hound that dominates the competition but can't produce his likeness.That folks flock to breed to him and get that "winning edge" but results are sub par and the Field Champion hound gets sold,passed around and then fades into obscurity.Before you put all your eggs in that field champion's basket based on his field record you might want to check out what his sons and daughters are doing.
1982 Kentucky Derby winner Gato Del Sol was markedly unsuccessful at stud in Kentucky and was sold to a group of West Germans.
1985 " " " Spend A Buck fell out of favor in Ky. and breeders quit using him and he ended his days in Brazil.
1987 " " " Alysheba was a commercial failure at stud as was sold to Saudi Arabians.
1993 " " " Sea Hero failed to produce quality foals and was sold to Turkey.
1997 " " " Silver Charm's reproducing ratio at stud was a very disappointing 3% and he was auctioned off to the Japanese.
1999 " " " Charismatic failed to live up to expectations in the stud barn with a 3% ratio of winners to foals and he too went to Japan.
In the horse racing world if they don't let you stay in the Bluegrass State it means -----you were a dud as a stud !
Does the same thing happen in the beagle world ? Sure.Is it human nature for folks to look at a World Hunt Winner,A.K.C. Nationals Winner,Mid-West Hound of the Year,etc.,etc. and think "I'm going get me some of that".Sure. Just remember caveat emptor or let the buyer beware.
May we all breed to a Ninja,Shooter,Viagra,Shaker,Striker,Reggie, Ali-Baba,Ranger Dan or Jack of all Trades in the future.
And as always JMHO.

[Hare Chaser]

Thanks my brother, for a well thought out post presented with historical documentation. It's obvious you put a lot of hard work into what you wrote. That's the type of thing I for one enjoy reading, something with some substance and deliberate thought. You brought out some valid points in a well balanced approach. No name calling, aggression or character degradation. Kudos to you my friend for showing some class and all without an ill word about anyone. This board needs more of that!!

For those of you who think I may be writing this without the benefit of knowing " Shady Grove" in person, he ad I have logged a lot of miles together behind many, many hounds for over 30 years. A friendship that will continue into eternity!

[fastone]

Come see me 66 well talk in person 2603 apple valley dr howard ill meet you even ,you also said your Blue male and several others had no nose you are not being honest .Bring your best well have a nice run any time ,tomorrow morning matter of fact Tuna was a fine hound with a very good nose not a lotof off spring did get it. You are invited 7:00 am

[RDN61]

Great post Shady Grove! Well thought out.

[Remmy]

Great post Shady Grove! Well thought out.

+1

[sparky]

Out of the last 45 horses that have won the Kentucky Derby 43 of those horses have shared at least one common ancestor in 4-5 generations,MOST of them share two or three common ancestors in a 4-5 generation pedigree.Case in point,those Ky Derby winners may not be directly out of a Champion horse,but they are in fact Line Bred on Champion horses within their 4-5 generation pedigree.It makes absolutely no difference to me how folks choose to breed,but I'm a firm believer that pedigree an genetics do matter.One of the most successful breeders in our sport is Branko,the majority of Branko's dogs have a fairly high COI% which means they are Line Bred/In Bred.If you research most of our FC's today you will find a lot of Mt Zion Pete,Dingus Mcrae,Anna's Ann etc etc..

I agree with a previous comment,instead of breeding to the flavor of the month try to breed to the line of the decade,but what happens when the flavor of the month happens to be out of the line of the decade,is it still okay to breed to him.

I noticed a lot of guys bred to FTCH Threejays Jack's Flyman when he was at stud with Chad Blair in Ky. Nobody down this way seen him run,but they bred to him anyway,and rightfully so,he definitely comes from a long line of Producers.

[Newt]

How many Kentucky Derby winners would you use for saddle horses or riding while fox or rabbit hunting.

[sparky]

Honestly I seriously doubt anyone would use a Derby winner for either one,Those horses are worth a pretty penny,most stud fees could range from $100,000 - $1,000,000. Once their race career is over they will be used for stud, But it's not that they couldn't be used for those things,they are some pretty talented horses.

[WELLS WOODS]

FC Brent's Prime Time was no Flavor of the Month hound either. Out of the 30 bitches he bred, 26 of them had pups to at least place in an AKC Mid-West licensed trial. He died before his first pup finished, FC Talkabout Kellie. His best pups like Kellie finished so fast that they were only in the BB results one year. If all of his placing pups had trialed for 3 or 4 years, Time could have been very close to winning BB's Top Sire. He did finish runner-up to Shooter one year ; lost by 2 offspring, but that was after a lot of Prime Time's FC's & placing hounds had retired from trialing.. He was Top Mid-West Sire 4 years in a row & produced 7 FC's & several others with one or two wins & was probably bred less than any top stud on the Mid-West Top Sire list. His offspring accounted for 55 AKC Mid-West licensed wins in 3 years of breeding. Imagine if he had finished young instead of at 6 yrs old & got to breed 200 bitches or more.
His lineage is similar to some of the others Dana mentioned; grandson to Jack Of ALL Trades & double bred East Coast Trimmer, who won the BB Top Sire Award multiple times. I guess some guys label the hounds, 'flavor of the month" that a lot of people breed to that don't end up producing. Especially when certain beagler's dogs get overlooked & not chosen as much as they had hoped. Very few males on average ever make a name for themselves as producers. It took several years before everyone realized the dogs that could & could not produce above average hounds. I thought Ranger Dan might be a flavor of the month dog & was coming from the Northeast without proving himself in the Mid-West. I was slow to get on board until I actually got to judge some of his offspring & they made a believer out of me. Now look at his son, Shooter; producer of more Mid-West FC's in Mid-West history. I'm sure many thought Heli-Prop was a flavor of the month when he first came to the Mid-West trials from Canada until he proved himself in the field. I never saw him run, but after judging his offspring & grandpups for years, I think he was the most influential one hound to improve the beagle breed as a whole; not just trialing, but the hunting community also.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Hey Sparkey
You and I share some of the same thoughts on breeding.I spent 21 years with a serious addiction to tree hounds following them mostly on coon but also spent time hunting bobcat and bear.
The one thing I learned was that ALL of your successful breeders of top tree hounds line bred.John Monroe with his Findley River Walkers,Joe House another Treeing Walker man,Dave Dean and Elbert Vaughn with the Blueticks,Berton Oney the English man,Art Hunziker with his Black and Tans,Earl Turpin Red Bones and Dale Brandenberger with his line of Plott Hounds.
I have listened to many on these forums lambast family breeding and why it doesn't work with more reasons than you can believe imaginable.But the truth of the matter is that if they were to check out the men listed above ,the hounds they have produced over their lifetimes and the satisfied owners of hounds produced by them over multiple generations they might change their way of thinking.
And I'm glad you brought up Branko Krpan.Some have maligned the Krpans and their hounds over the years.Say what you will,NOBODY in the past 30 years or so has done more in regards to the type of beagle most of us that frequent this site choose to hunt,run,trial,etc. than Branko and Freida and for sure NOBODY has had the success in field trial competition that they have enjoyed.
And to all the nay sayers.As You mentioned Sparkey,check out the pedigrees on Branko's hounds going back over those 30+ years and you will see that there is regular line breeding going on.

Last winter I was very excited to see posted on this site that Mark Trudell from up-state New York was sending his Canadian Field Champion hound Threejays Jack's Fly Man down to Chad Blair in Winchester,Ky. to stand at stud for the winter.Was Fly Man a "flavor of the month" hound? I would have to say no way as Fly Man was almost 9 years old and almost nobody in the states had even heard about the dog.Truth is that a young guy in northern N.Y. had bought Fly Man from Jack Blum of Ontario,Canada as a 3 year old after Jack had championed him out in Canada.This guy just used him to gun hare over for the next 5 years.The guy ended up offering him to Mark and Mark jumped at the chance to own a hound of his abilities and breeding.
I too jumped at the chance to breed to Fly Man and I'd never seen him run.I know Mark and respect him as a knowledgeable houndsman,I knew well of Jack Blum and his reputation as a houndsman and the reputation of the hounds that made up his very successful Threejays kennel there in Ontario.I knew that Jack had phenomenal success breeding Blue Ninja females to Haunted Hill Shaker producing 17 Field champions out of three crosses bred that way and continued that success with crossing a Argenteuil Striker son to one of those females.
In 1993 I had the opportunity to watch Ninja destroy a pack of 59 big males at North Hampton-Russel Beagle Club in Massachusetts and then got to see Ninja and his two litter mate sisters Mimi and Missy run at the International Beagle Hare Futurity Trial of Champions.I was sold on those hounds and have been line breeding Ninja,his sister Branko's Conna,their sire Jack of all Trades ever since.
I was able to cross my linebred Ninja female who also carries Shaker and Lumberjack behind her to Fly Man who has Ninja,Striker,Shaker and Lumberjack in his 3 generation ped. Line breeding on some power houses of performance and reproduction.
Did it work? My female is now 1 year old and i am extremely pleased with her. The reports that I get fro those that own her littermates sound very good also.
This breeding is more like the "flavor of the past 20 years".LOL.

[Newt]

I suppose, since you don't trial, your dogs have not been tested, therefore you don't know if theyr are good or not.
Just kidding to make a point.

I don't trial either but I like my dogs as well.

[fulcount]

Newt
well said in a FEW words

John O

[sparky]

ShadyGrove, I think we do share some of the same thoughts on breeding.Glad to hear your cross worked out,even though you never seen FlyMan run you still took a chance on him because of his strong pedigree,and it sounds like it worked out for you. Good luck.

As far as the flavor of the month goes,None of the great producers an legends of our sport could've ever became legends if nobody ever bred to them,folks were given the opportunity to use them as studs because of the success they had in field trials,out of All the previous mentioned legends All of them were Field Champions.The fact of the matter is Field Trials are important an have been a huge influence on Beagling the sport we all love.

[WELLS WOODS]

That's right; Prime Time was only bred 2 times before I got him at age 6 & finished him that same year. Once Don Hoog bred to him after he finished, other well known beaglers bred nice bitches that crossed well with him.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Hey Sparkey
Having you on here it's almost like having a pen pal.LOL.
I totally agree with you in regards to the importance of field trials and Field champions bringing forth top performing hounds in to the public's eye so they can be used for breeding.
I also am in total agreement to the influence they have and do play in the sport of beagling and the education value of helping us all to evaluate blood lines.
Be that as it may,I can relate to mybeagles when he states " truth be told,I don't really care for field trials...... I'd rather run dogs all weekend".My sentiments exactly !!
Before folks jump all over me and think I don't know what the trialing scene is all about .When I got out of the tree hounds and competition Nite Hunting and back in to beagles in 1992 I traveled around the Large Pack on Hare trial circuit a fair amount in New Hampshire,Vermont,Maine and Massachusetts.Even won the New Hampshire-Vermont Association Derby Championship Trial one year.
Moved to Tennessee in 1995 and soon got my A.R.H.A. Little Pack judges license and then my Master of Hounds license. Judged regularly at the three clubs in middle Tn. and have judged casts at the Tennessee,Kentucky and Mississippi State Hunts and served as the Master of Hounds at a State hunt.
Newt in his recent post made a tongue-in-cheek joke that actually hit home to me and kind of has to do with the mind set of some who have posted here and a mind set that I've seen often in other threads.
That being that if you are not a field trialer,a winner of field trials or at least a participant in field trials,don't have Field Trial Champions,pups out of Field Trial Champions,have never judged a field trial, never really put your dog to the "test" in a field trial,etc.,etc. than you can't possibly have a clue or any idea at all about what a top dog or even a GOOD dog is.
REALLY ? REALLY ? Those that appear to believe that, are ya all really serious? How totally puffed-up,self serving and lame that thinking is !
In the past nine years I've entered a total of four trials,In 2007 I entered a young female that had never been to a trial in her life in the Southern Large Pack Championship at Mel Faust's in Louisiana.After six hours of running she took a 4'th.In 2011 I entered three females that had never ever been trialed in Claremont New Hampshire's Beagle Club's Licensed Large Pack on Hare Trial where we ran the hounds for 8 1/2 hours before they called field trial.I took 1'st and 3'rd and my other female stayed down in the winners pack but did not place.The other two trials were Mid-West trials where they judged on horseback.I brought a nice young female that had never ever seen a horse before and she just couldn't handle the horses running near her.My fault .
Because I'm no trialer could I not see what the hounds were doing?Did the results not speak for themselves?Did my hounds pass the test?
At the risk of bursting somebody's bubble.If you were to do the research you'd find that beagle trialing is not the epicenter of beagling that some seem to think it is.In America just plain rabbit gun hunters and pleasure runners whether it be cottontails,hare or swampers FAR,FAR,FAR out number those who participate in beagle field trials.I would guess that the number of folks who actively trial beagles is a very small percentage of those who keep beagles for pursueing rabbits .Heck,last time I saw stats on it from A.K.C. I believe that the Traditional Brace entries still out number both the Large Pack and S.P.O. entries.And T.B. aren't even REAL hunting dogs !
There are many,many long time ,dedicated and knowledgeable houndsmen who have NEVER been to or participated in any kind of a field trial !
My friend Harechaser from N.H. is one of the most knowledgeable houndsmen I know of concerning tree hounds and beagles used on hare and especially those that qualify as a true "snow hound" and he's never entered a trial.The fellow he has coon hunted and hare hunted with for years and knows more about hounds than most has never entered a trial.Fellows I know and hare hunt with in New Hampshire and Maine own some very nice hounds and have never entered any trials.Back in the day most all the coon hunters I knew hunted for hides and the check at the fur buyer's shed and laughed at those who chased"those plastic trophies".They never entered competition hunts.The old fellows that I cat and bear hunted with for years never needed any trials to tell them what dog would pull hair and put the bear in the tree.Most of the beaglers I run into around here have nothing to do with field trials.In fact over the years it has been my experience that many,many beaglers have expressed the thoughts or feelings that they don't want anything to do with field trial beagles.
I witnessed a State Hunt where the dog was crowned State Champion and they never ran a rabbit in the final cast.Hunting and handling.And owner now had bragging rights.
An A.K.C. trial where no dogs could put a circle on the rabbit that day but 1-NBQ. was awarded and a win and points were taken home.
Been to more than one A.K.C. field trial where the hounds rioted on deer and handlers scattered throughout the woods trying to catch them.At the end of the day there was a hound with his first place win and points toward his champion degree.
When I ran Large Pack on Hare trials I can't begin to tell you how many big name trialers and big name trialing hounds had NEVER EVER been run outside of a fenced enclosure or EVER had a rabbit killed in front of them !
I can take you to one of the biggest field trial winning kennels here in Tn. that have two of those storage buildings that the Menonites sell [the big ones ] absolutely packed with trophies and ribbons,plaques,clocks and every other symbol of winning there is.And you know what? Those folks don't hunt at all.
Haven't for years ! Most of their champion hounds have NEVER heard a shotgun or seen a dead rabbit !
Now I know I'm just an old guy on a rant here....... but when I see and hear some folks say that unless you are judging your hounds by field trialing you haven't put them to the "test" and how can you "Know" if they are any good or not?Too many scenarios like those mentioned for me to take every hound with F.C. before his name as quality.
And John O. The reason my posts have gotten so long lately as a dues paying member of the AFL-CIO union member of the Tennessee Fiction writers guild and under contract to this inter-net site I am required to generate a certain amount of material for which Iam payed for by the word.And payed for quite handsomely I might ad.LOL.
As always,anything and everything is JMHO.