Registered packs run to a lose? How?

REBEL · Post by **REBEL** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 5:08 pm

Chris-so you are calling Richard Smoker of Pa an out right lier??if not mistaken the last time YOU backed off once Richard came on and ask YOU if you were caling him a lier and you said here that you did not know him that welll,so do YOU now know him well enough to call him a lier now??The blueticks are only a little over 13" if they are that big-the two blacked headed blueticks are the ones i sold him and he still has them and i have a young female from one of them and his male which is at Ghost in Va at the present.John has ran with my hounds and if you ever get a chance to come to Johns to run i hope he will allow me to bring a couple and run with ya'll.
Canadian==i am not talking cottontail-most any hound can do a fair job on cotton tail,mostly what i run are swampers and i have ran in Maine where my brother lives on several thousand acres and there the showshoe run in very large circles and straight out and straight back,more like a grey hound race if you have fast beagles and not trailing hounds.The bloodlines i have from hare country are Branko,IFC Merlin,hounds from Joe Parrino-Steve Corey-Don Potts (DaiseyXMerlin) and three from Anthony Johnson-his hounds- that are mostly Branko and i have some Armado blood also - the hare hounds are line breed mostly with lots and lots of red in their pedigree.

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:05 pm

I've had some pretty good dogs over the years.Packs of med fast and some fast.The ones I kept were smart and had enough brains to go with their noses.At least I thought they did:) They must have really sucked though cause they only caught a rabbit on rare occassions:-)

I find it incredible that anyone's pack has never had a loss or even usually never has a loss.I also find it remarkable that a pack of beagles (Hare or spo,med,med fast.fast,kick ass fast (aka any) could run down and catch five of anything in a day with the exception of butterflies :-).But if you say so ok.I guess there are or could be conditions that could come about that would tip the scales in the favor of the dogs on a given day to catch that many.Depth of snow / ice lack of cover / type of cover in an area where sight chasing and foot conditions for the hounds be just right.Number of hounds used cutting and strung out etc.
Hunt6 (David)

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 8:25 pm

Chris, the term "Hobby Hound" is not a derogatory name and is what they call their walkie talkies around here. They know they are no good for hunting and yet, they enjoy breeding, raising and judging pups, training and taking their dogs to a trial with their children and grandchildren as much as any of us.

Every run ends in a loss but the dogs are right in front of you as close as 10 feet so they are easily caught off the line and its great for those not able to hunt due to old age, infirmaties, or anyone that enjoys beagles and wants to have some that are easily handled. The whole race only goes about 15-25 feet anyway and that takes a while as closeness, I mean closeness, on the line is how thay are judged. The choice of a winner is picked before everyones eyes. If they stay down any longer, the dog will die beautifully on the line trying its upmost to move forward while continuing to stay a strattle the line as the track gets too cold to progress, but never moves away or side to side from the line he was on and cannot move any further. That is a good thing and will get you points with the judges as he never left the line regardless. In the 40's and 50's I trialed this way and kept old trashy grade dogs to hunt with.

They are sure enjoying themselves and a greater bunch of people you'll never meet. I go occasionally, and the women that fix the lunch are magicians the food is so good. Country with a capital C. I have never seen anyone that was not happy and as proud of his win and trophy as anyone I've seen at any type field trial.

I helped start the club in 1954. All AKC dogs only.

To each his own!!! History lesson over.

laal · Post by **laal** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:34 pm

Hunt 5 who said they had dogs that never ran to a loss. If my dogs jump a full grown rabbit I except them to run it to ground or catch it, if I don't catch the dogs first.... I would say they do as I except 90 per cent of the time. I see you live in Middle Tenn. I live in lower al. but do most of my running in north al. if you would like to see our dogs run you are welcome anytime. Most of the time it takes a little over 1 hour to hole a rabbit if it stays up it takes a little longer to catch. I agree with everything John is saying about his dogs, if a pack that runs together everyday can't do as he says (in alabama) then you need to start culling! Chris I sure would like to see you come down, seeing is beliving.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:52 pm

John,

I want to apologize and hope you will accept. When I was reading the thread it all ran together and I had it wrong. You would think the taste of crow would improve over the years but it hasn't. I am very sorry

...Patch

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 9:56 pm

Northern running hounds and Southern running hounds have been 2 differant types in years past. Differant styles of running and differant running conditions. In the 50s, a dog from Alabama and a dog from from cold winter areas were as differant as night and day. The northern hound would generally have a better nose and be slower. The Southern hound would be a little more hot nosed and be fast. This is a generalization and there are always exceptions. I am talking about running hounds only and not tree dogs. In the north a heavier dog with a bigger nose was needed because of conditions and in the south the same goes for a lighter faster dog who could have a little warmer nose because of conditions. A colder nose usually goes with a more houndy dog in the old days. Things are changing of course but there are still bloodlines in the south that can simply smoke a rabbit. A kid I just met has a little pack dog that finished 3rd in world and when he hits a track it is like you lit a bottle rocket. He is a streak and I have no doubt he can catch a rabbit in sparse cover. If you ain't seen it, it don't mean it ain't so.

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:53 pm

Laal wrote
Hunt 5 who said they had dogs that never ran to a loss. If my dogs jump a full grown rabbit I except them to run it to ground or catch it, if I don't catch the dogs first.... I would say they do as I except 90 per cent of the time. I see you live in Middle Tenn. I live in lower al. but do most of my running in north al. if you would like to see our dogs run you are welcome anytime. snip

Hunt 5 may have said that I - Hunt6 did not:-) I think we are on the same page.90% is 10% short of 100% on catching and running to a loss or ground.

I alluded to cover or the lack of as being a factor.A very big factor .If I'm in your neck of the woods I'll look you up if time can be allowed.I always enjoy good hounds. I see and appreciate good dogs no matter whether they are med,med fast or wind spliters as long as they run it with very few break downs.
Hunt6 (David)

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:04 pm

Patch, we are all just knocking this around and I'm learning much from those of you that work your dogs in conditions I hope I never have too. I never knew registered packs existed in this country so I was just wanting to know all about them and what type of dogs they have. It opened this can of worms. No apoligy necessary or needed. You are a wise man that I respect and I always appreciate your post. Because of what I have read in your other post and think I know you, You cannot insult me as I will know and understand how it was meant. What a good looking leggy lemon you have.

Keep it up!

John

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Mon Jun 23, 2003 11:48 pm

John,
I sent you a pm, hope it will help answer some of your questions...Patch

Post by **Bev** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:45 am

John, the formal packs run a more conservative hound than you, no doubt, but they aren't peanut rollers by any stretch. They have caught a few rabbits as well as run them to the gun. Some of the same bloodlines run successfully in UKC.

How are ya doin'? How long till you're "hunnerd-percent"?

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:15 am

John, you started a good topic. Like always when you get people together that are serious about their sport things can get a little tense but most of us realize that we all have a lot in common. We just have different terrain and conditions to deal with.
My dogs almost never catch a rabbit unless it gets a little lead to slow it down first. I did have a bird dog that would catch every rabbit in my pen in short order until I caught him so I don't doubt it can be done. As for catching full grown, healthy hare that have plenty of cover to run in I have never seen a beagle do it.
I would love to run dogs with laal or John sometime and see what you are talking about and if you ever decide to head "up north" let me know and we will try those hounds out on some white rabbits. I promise you they will get a chance to use their speed (long as you come before November).
Now if your callin a loss when the dogs just quit then I don't get many. Where we run hare there are so many that some dogs switch rabbits a lot. On a good day the dogs run steady all day until you either catch them or wear them out. I have turned dogs loose to run all night long and they were still running steady the next morning. I'm sure they switched rabbits several times and didn't catch any but they also didn't quit running at all.
I don't know nothin bout no formal packs cept what I read and that don't tell me much. Could be they just handle better'n my hounds.

Phillip Smith · Post by **Phillip Smith** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 5:25 am

Hey John, good to see you in a descussion again. It's hard to argue with a man that catches as many rabbits as your dogs. I've heard this from everyone that knows them. You know what speed I run. We ran the other morning and the rabbit came out and I walked over and put my hands on him. We caught the dogs of before the eat him. Two nights later the same dogs caught 3 rabbits. A couple of days later they ran another one till he was in as bad shape as the one I put my hands on. I know what yout saying. Some times my close hounds will find a rabbit faster then yours and the next time your dogs that reach out quicker and farther will have it and be gone before mine would know what happened. Either way there shouldn't be all those losses that you are talking about unless around a lot of big water. Bev, I agree also somewhat (a whole lot) on the rabbit having a lot to do on how the dogs run. Keep getting better John, I want to see those dogs run this fall.
Good luck!

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:00 am

REBEL wrote:Chris-so you are calling Richard Smoker of Pa an out right lier??if not mistaken the last time YOU backed off once Richard came on and ask YOU if you were caling him a lier and you said here that you did not know him that welll,so do YOU now know him well enough to call him a lier now??

Rebel, that fellow isn't the one that wants me to buy into an outright fairy-tale -- it's you. I said before and I'll say again; I'm calling nobody a liar -- I'm saying as loudly as I can that someone is playing recklessly with reality. That's all. This is the same as if I were to insist to you that every Beagle I've ever seen had 7 legs. You'd know it wasn't true; I'd know it wasn't true, and so would everyone else. You'd look at me and say, "what?, Beagles don't have 7 legs". Now Rebel, would you be wrong in not believing something that you absolutely, unequivocally knew wasn't the truth? It'd be a little bit insulting to be told something like that, wouldn't it? It's the same thing with those 2 medium speed dogs of yours running down 5 hare in a day -- it simply didn't happen. Maybe you were fed a line; maybe you're making it up. I don't know. After hearing from a few hare running fellows it should be apparent to you that the 5 hare thing was misinformation. If you keep insisting that it's reality, then it's your fault.

REBEL wrote:i have ran in Maine where my brother lives on several thousand acres and there the showshoe run in very large circles and straight out and straight back,more like a grey hound race if you have fast beagles and not trailing hounds.

So, the question begs to be asked if your dogs each caught 5 hare a day in Maine... Did they? Surely, since hare are so easily caught in large numbers, by even medium speed hounds, your pack must have really piled them up. Right?

REBEL wrote:John has ran with my hounds and if you ever get a chance to come to Johns to run i hope he will allow me to bring a couple and run with ya'll.

If that opportunity ever presents itself I'd consider myself lucky and bend over backwards to make it happen. I'm actually considering a trip that way in Jan or Feb of this coming year, so maybe it will.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:23 am

Phillip, You know most on here are not going to believe you!

Your dogs are registered AKC and I'm sure everyone would be interested in their breeding to see how they run. Would you share that with us? I bet a lot of the folks on here would recognize your breeding and it would make a real good point that I cannot possibly make.

Mine are not registered and most carry the blood of Garbage Can Mike and Backtrack Sally, local hounds not too well known away from here.

Real fast speed in sure not the only way to run one down. Steady speed with pressure the way your dogs do it will do it just as well as you have said, although yours are not slow by any means, just much, much, closer.

Your pack would be what most on here would prefer by far as they are close running, but make no mistakes and no rabbit can stand that for long. Steve told me he had never seen a pack run solid like yours do.

I'll bet that yours and Beagleman973 dogs run alike.

Rabbits are bred for the short burst and cannot maintain moving quickly for long periods of time without giving out as you demonstrate.

Hunting and jumping rabbits is done the same by whatever speed your dogs.

Philip, you know you opened a can of worms by saying this, but I'm going to back you up and we both will look like liars to most on here. I already do, but hoped to save you!!!
I too have picked up rabbits that lay down and can go no farther, get stiff as a board, and carried them off and let them loose. I do not call that a lose although it sure bothers the dogs because as I said, rabbits don't fly and they know it.

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 10:14 am

Rebel....."Most any dog can do a fair job of running a cottontail..."

Tell you what....bring your dogs to southern Illinois and we will see just how simple and easy it is to run cotton tails. Through multiflora rose, back and forth through fences where dogs have to know how to climb fences, across oiled lease roads, through creeks, ditches, brush piles, through river bottoms swamps. Where temperatures can change as much as 20-30 degrees in a day during hunting season. Where there are almost as many coyotes as rabbits, so the rabbits that survive learn to twist, jump on logs, run through water, double after double, etc.

We use to run swampers around here when I was a kid, now there are none left, though we still have swamps. The swampers around here couldn't survive the onset of the coyote population. But the simple, any dog can run them, no problem to account for, cotton tails did.

Anytime you want to run, just let me know. Take whatever dogs you want and I'll even let you pick the dog from my kennels that I run. We'll see just how any dog can run a cotton tail.

I won't make the claim about hare. Never have hunted them. For all I know my hounds may not be able to account for them....but they don't do bad on the simple easy to run cotton tails!