What still constitutes a bloodline

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mybeagles
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by mybeagles »

Pine Ridge, wvdeuce,

I have the pleasure of living on the border so my hounds get to experience both. I run cottons in the briar patches and hare in the jack pine forrest and cedar swamps. I do prefer a 15" hound for the hare and 13" for the briars but dont keep a big enough kennel for both so usually have 13's. Again, I think this goes back to conditioning your dogs to both. I have had guys come up from down south that had scrappy briar dogs that were acustomed to keeping eye contact with the handler who were afraid to venture out 400-500 yards to find a hare. On the contrary, I have seen wide hunting hare hounds that would skip bye a 10 acre briar patch full of rabbits with no intention of getting in. In my experience if you consistantly expose them to both at a young age they will do either.

To dispell an apparent myth. A good hare hound does not just run trails. EVERY GOOD beagle will get in the thick cover or they will not be much of a jump dog. I dont know anyone that doesnt want extra hunt and desire to find a rabbit. Maybe the guy that just keeps his hound next to the woodstove and couldnt live with himself if his dog got out of his sight. :baby:
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S.R.Patch
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by S.R.Patch »

mybeagles wrote:S.R. Patch,

You question wether its worth it to get out in extreme weather? The only conversation Ive had with Branko he was talking about running in extreme weather, so aparently he still thinks its worth it. Like Kurt said, there is a risk every time you go out. I have had a dog hit by a car, and had two stolen out from under me but never lost one to the cold or heat. The safest way to make sure that dont happen is to keep them in the house by the wood stove and if thats what works for you then Im happy for you. I enjoy being out in the extremes and seeing what the best hounds can do, whereas running on a 50 degree morning with a light misty rain where the dogs all pound doesnt show me as much.

Its been my experience that the good snow dogs were good hot weather dogs as well. The key for me was conditioning them for it. During the winter when you run 4-5 days a week in 0 to 20 degrees and then take them out in -20 its not a radical change. During the summer you run 4-5 nights a week in 80+ temps then when it gets 90 its not an extreme change. I think it would be harsh to take a dog from -20 and throw them in 90 deg the next week but not sure where that could happen. I think dogs have much more potential to handle extremes than we think. Poor handling and rapid exposure are stessful to anydog. Its just as cruel in my book when guys let dogs sit in a kennel for weeks at a time (because their lives are so busy)and then go run them for 8-9 hours. Have had guys come north to run hare with me and after 3 hours their hounds are tipping over from exhaustion, being overweight, and gasping for air. This happens frequently and I dont ivite as often as I used to. I love my beagles and try to provide the best for them and in return they seem eager to please me every time out. If that means extreme temps or 12 hour runs they answer the call or I let someone else keep them in the house by the woodstove.
Mybeagles,
I certainly don't disagree with what your saying, but can't for the life of me find where I made the statement you responding to... :lol:
I resolved it long ago we stay apart...otherwise I'd be saying your kookie... ;)

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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by Pike Ridge Beagles »

mybeagles wrote:Pine Ridge, wvdeuce,

I have the pleasure of living on the border so my hounds get to experience both. I run cottons in the briar patches and hare in the jack pine forrest and cedar swamps. I do prefer a 15" hound for the hare and 13" for the briars but dont keep a big enough kennel for both so usually have 13's. Again, I think this goes back to conditioning your dogs to both. I have had guys come up from down south that had scrappy briar dogs that were acustomed to keeping eye contact with the handler who were afraid to venture out 400-500 yards to find a hare. On the contrary, I have seen wide hunting hare hounds that would skip bye a 10 acre briar patch full of rabbits with no intention of getting in. In my experience if you consistantly expose them to both at a young age they will do either.

To dispell an apparent myth. A good hare hound does not just run trails. EVERY GOOD beagle will get in the thick cover or they will not be much of a jump dog. I dont know anyone that doesnt want extra hunt and desire to find a rabbit. Maybe the guy that just keeps his hound next to the woodstove and couldnt live with himself if his dog got out of his sight. :baby:
First, I am Pike Ridge..Pine Ridge I think is Ky. :lol:
Our CT hounds range quite a bit as well...but mostly check in occasionally and will hunt either style depending on how we handlers direct them. With all the yotes and many times hunting near roads, it is best to keep them within 2 or 3 hundred yards.
I train mine to do both depending on where I am hunting and who I am hunting with...especially when running younger hounds. For example, today was a nasty day and we directed the area we wanted the dogs to hunt. Other days, we just let them roll and they seem to know when that type hunt is desired. Many young dogs will range and hunting with the handler is something that has to be trained.

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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by wvduece »

my dogs hunt with me i dont want them ranging 7 or 800 yards looking for a rabbit sometimes they will get a lil too far out n i have to reel them back in thats just the way i trained them like pike said too many yotes n roads n other things to loose my dogs too now if they hit a big running rabbit they will take it way out there n back another thing i have trained my dogs to do when they put a rabbit in a hole they come back n check in with me they didnt always do that but over time thats the way i want them to do i haveseen guys with those trail runners just keep walking n dogs keep going too dont even attempt to get in the brush they will walk right past plenty of rabbits just like mybeagles said jb
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S.R.Patch
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by S.R.Patch »

I like my hounds to hunt like brittney spaniels, covering ground, testing soil and air for scent. I've hunted behind some brittneys that were real rabbit finders.
Some people like to walk up with their hounds, but I perfer to cast hounds and let them hunt for game, as long as they come within eye shot every short spell and check in when they've covered the area, that's fine by me... ;)
I had a devil of a time when I first got my patches. They were so bold and wanted to range hunting like I'd never experienced before. When I first went hare hunting, I saw the nature of what was necessary for a hound to hunt and start game in the north woods. ps... and I like it alot... :lol:

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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by Pike Ridge Beagles »

S.R.Patch wrote:I like my hounds to hunt like brittney spaniels, covering ground, testing soil and air for scent. I've hunted behind some brittneys that were real rabbit finders.
Some people like to walk up with their hounds, but I perfer to cast hounds and let them hunt for game, as long as they come within eye shot every short spell and check in when they've covered the area, that's fine by me... ;)
I had a devil of a time when I first got my patches. They were so bold and wanted to range hunting like I'd never experienced before. When I first went hare hunting, I saw the nature of what was necessary for a hound to hunt and start game in the north woods. ps... and I like it alot... :lol:
Then you'd like my Bluetick.

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Bev
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by Bev »

I think as much as weather conditions are taken into consideration, terrain should be, too. My old female tends to hunt like a bird dog -- sweeping back and forth in front of me, never going more than 50 yards to the left or the right. Although she hunts flat land in Indiana, she was born and trained in the hills of WV until she was almost a year old. Her former owner hunted the ridges and didn't want his dogs getting down in a deep holler away from him and jumping a rabbit. Ranging out too far can hurt you on flat land too, if you're running cottontail. Anyone who's hunted the reclaimed strip mines of Southern Indiana knows how easy it is to lose a dog if they get over a crown away from you. Trackers are about the only thing that give me comfort down there.

mybeagles
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by mybeagles »

SR Patch,

I mistook Dr. Cris post for yours, sorry about that. He posed the question "Is it really worth it"? Can you see with all these posts how someone might get two mixed up. All that said, dont act like my teenage daughter. The hypersensitivity on this board is like estrogen filled teenage girls. "You hurt my feelings, or your kookie, Im not going to play with you anymore". When guys do their best to slam or criticize me I just laugh. :lol: :lol: Sometimes its true, sometimes their just idiots, I generally know the difference.

These posts are not college research papers, but rather opinions, experiences, and perceptions. When you have been running dogs for 25 years like most of us have been on here, not to many posts are going to radically change your practices or opinions. As long as everyone keeps things civil, take what you want, discard the rest, its all good. We are all beaglers, with a few common interests, where it goes from there is up to the individual. I dont dislike or despise any of you, dont agree with most, but so what. These freedoms of opinion and the right to exercise them is what motivates me when Im in Iraq or Korea 4000 miles away from the people I love to get up everymorning and go to work. It would be wise not to forget that. There is nothing anyone can say on here that will hurt my feelings, I hope I really dont cause any of you hartburn. :bash:
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NorWester1
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by NorWester1 »

Bev wrote:A beagle has 225 million scent receptors in it's nasal passages. So does a German Shepherd. You're breeding for brains, not nose.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. ;)
A pug has four legs attached to it's body. So does a Greyhound. Using your logic all a pug needs is brains and he can run just as fast as the Greyhound.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it?

No wonder there aren't that many hounds that can run when it gets tough out......no one breeding for nose power, everyone wants a hound that can do their tax return :roll:

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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by NorWester1 »

Pine Mt Beagles wrote:NORWESTER1
I THINK IF A HOUND HAS TRUE GRIT NO MATTER WHERE YOU TAKE IT ,,IT WILL STILL HAVE GRIT. I THINK SOME TIME TO ADJUST TO THE CLIMATE AND A LITTLE CONDITIONING WOULD HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED .I THINK WE AGREE ON THIS PART,,,, MY BEAGLES WROTE------------------- you guys in KY are not breeding for the nose I am looking for---------------------------
MYBEAGLES,,,YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT ON THAT .I HAVE OWNED AND BRED A FEW HOUNDS,,,, THAT MYSELF AND FRIENDS HAVE RAN IN A PACK OF 12 OR 15 HOUNDS,AND WATCH THESE FEW HOUNDS LOCK ON' AND RUN A TWISTING RUNNING COTTON TAIL.THROUGH FIELDS OF BRIARS AND ALSO OPEN WOODS IN REALLY HOT DRY WINDY WEATHER AND EVERY HOUND IN THE PACK CHECK THEM SEVERAL TIMES AND WALK OFF, COULD NOT SMELL THE TRACK.AND MORE THAN ONCE' WE THOUGHT THESE HOUNDS WERE CRAZY .JUST TO FINALLY SEE THE RABBIT AND THINK MAN THAT HOUND HAS A NOSE.AND MOST OR ALL OF THE OTHER HOUNDS WE HAD OUT' WERE BETTER THAN AVERAGE' RABBIT AND TRIAL HOUNDS .AND THEMSELVES HAD LOCKED ON' AN RAN THE SAME WAY AT OTHER TIMES. BUT'' NO MATTER'' WHAT'' WHEN YOU FIND A HOUND THAT YOU LIKE HOLD ON TO IT .AT LEAST FOR ME THEY HAVE BEEN FAR AND FEW IN COMMING.........GOOD LUCK
KEEP'EM RUNNING

PINE MT BEAGLES
I agree with the first part of your post......

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Bev
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by Bev »

Norwester, if the pug had the same amount of leg that the greyhound does, I would expect he could. I compared 2 dogs that shared the exact same anatomy in relation to scenting ability. In that very RELEVENT SENSE, those dogs are equal.

You compared a pug and a greyhound in relation to speed...and you call my logic flawed? That was really reaching just to have some sort of comeback. You might want to go here: http://www.stopembarrassingyourself.com

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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by NorWester1 »

So you don't believe that a hounds scent receptors may be more developed even though they share the same number as any other dog? Perhaps you could quote me the literature on that, I'm curious if that is even addressed.

A pug was an extreme example to make it obvious for folks like you. There ARE plenty of dogs with as much leg as a greyhound........they can't run as fast either. No brains I guess right?

mybeagles
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by mybeagles »

How about a great dane X gray hound race.

Ive seen some beagles that looked more like a terrier/gray hound crossed than a beagle. Which brings us back to the question, "What still contitutes a bloodline" :?:
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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by Bev »

A pug was an extreme example to make it obvious for folks like you.
The only thing made obvious for me is that you can't grasp a concept, and that might explain why you can't seem to get dogs that can run in -35 temps the way you want them to. Exactly where is the science that tells us that even though most all dog breeds share the same amount of scent receptors, not all of those receptors are developed equally? I didn't think so. You don't have the science on it and I doubt you can Google it up if you spend all day trying. This baloney about good nose/bad nose is what you've told yourself is the case, and it is you who cannot see the obvious.

The REALITY is, a Golden Retriever, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, a Doberman, and many, many other breeds - even mixed breeds, can smell just as well as your beagle. 220 million scent receptors is 220 million scent receptors, period. A Newfie can locate a drowning victim simply by the very diluted bit of scent that makes it to the water's surface. They use them because they are large enough to haul a body out if need be. We use beagles because they are small and fast. If nose is quite equal among so many different breeds, there is virtually NO DIFFERENCE among dogs of the same breed. The nose-to-mouth connection is largely determined by brains. It is what tells a dog when it's feasible to claim a line.

Consider the back-tracker. Dogs are at a check. Dog A takes the check out back-tracking -- tonguing like a mo-fo. The other 4 dogs ignore him and continue searching. Is this because they don't have as good a nose as dog A?

Consider the truely, what is loosely called the "cold-nosed" dog. He's out there popping off on scent laid down the night before, and the other dogs are not. Do you think the other dogs cannot smell what he's smelling? Sure they can. They simply have the brains to recognize it as an old track, and therefore don't claim it as a viable one.

Consider the average walkie-talkie brace dog. I rescued one of these one time and had him in the back yard with my other dogs for a while. I would let the dogs down into the yard each evening to exercise. This brace dog never shut up from the time he was put on the ground until I put him back above ground. He barked on squirrel tracks, he barked on my footprints, he barked on all the other dogs' tracks, and at one point...when he'd run out of a track, he turned around and tongued his own track back the side-length of my fence. There's a reason why brace dogs are carried to the line and put down on it. If they didn't keep them off the ground until the moment of truth, nobody would know when the chase really began. Did they breed better "more developed" noses into those dogs? No, they bred the brains out.

So I have to go back to your scenario where your outcrossed female had some 5-minute spurts of "running" and the other 4 did not. I would challenge you that your 4 other dogs smelled exactly what she was smelling. She considered it a viable run and said so. The other 4 didn't agree.

There isn't a nickel's worth of difference in the noses of all beagles. It's all about how they "choose" to use it, and that is brains. You see that dynamic in humans, too.

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Re: What still constitutes a bloodline

Post by mybeagles »

Bev,

In the scenario where one dog runs a track and circles a rabbit back to the gun and the other dogs never bark, do you argue the dogs that never bark are smarter? I would agree that a dog that continually barks on tracks that dont produce a rabbit is a fool, but not barking when a rabbit is jumped if he can smell just as well as the dog running it would be a fool also. With coyote, bear, cat, lion hunting a dog that can cold trail a 6-10 hour old track is very valuable. It takes a real smart dog to do it and do it effectively. If rabbits were scarce and extremely tough to find like bear or cats I bet our opinion of a cold trailing beagle would change.

The best snow dog I owned could be taken out 2 hours after a fresh snow and if I could find a track made since the snow I could tell her to stay on it and she would work it to the jump. Did this MANY times. Have not owned a dog since that would or could do it. This little gyp was the smartest beagle I have ever owned. She would likely get culled in some of your kennels. She frequently opened 50-100 yards before any other dog. If I could only be blessed with more just like her.

I dont agree that all dogs smell the exact same. Physical traits are given in measure linked to genetics and its not exclusively tied to brains. With that line of thinking all good athletes have superior brains. A quick glance at the NFL, NBA, MLB will prove thats not true.
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