Breaking from running deer

[bob huffman]

Well i am glad to see that there are people on this board with some common sence...It do'nt matter awhole hill a beans how you break um. Broke is broke, And if they ai'nt there will be a day...
Wingpatch

[bob huffman]

N.Y. Hillbilly
I have had dogs for awhile and i have yet to see one shake her pups less she was a bad mother and was trying to kill them.
I have seen as i am sure you have, them snap at pups for doing something she did'nt like. I am sure Joe has good results with his method.
I will not put anyones ideas down to them. And i will not say this or that is the way to do it, less someone ask.
Fact is i think i might try catching the next dog of mine that is doing something wrong and biting them real hard.
Wingpatch

[bob huffman]

Seriously Joe tell us.
Seeing that is what this topic was about.
We all might exchange some ideas and metods that we can put with our own to really help each other.
Wingpatch .

[AlabamaSwamper]

I'll be honest, if someone knows a better way of breaking a dog, then by all means, tell me how and please, please don't say breeding. No dog is born knowing not to run a deer. I've done said my peace on that one. THere are some that may not run one after running rabbits solid for the first year or two of their life but those are rare and I could turn those dogs to deer in a very short time. Like Pete said, some dogs may not ever run one but then at an old age, there they go. No line is trash proof and I see nobody has took my bet yet on this either. Joe, where do you live. I'm betting its not in Alabama where deer outnumber rabbits in most places. Dogs are checked every day here when they run. I do have one that turns them down and he has never been broke but that don't mean he is 100% deer broke. Besides, I'm tired of running tanks of gas out looking for deer runners. I done it growing up and it gets old. I'm like wingpatch, if they run deer and can't be broke, then just shoot the dog and move on. I've personally never seen one that couldn't be broke but I've only owned rabbits dogs for a few years. Deer dogs is my passion but I don't do it on a regular basis anymore so I don't own any.

Now I know guys that whip their dogs for running trash, shoot them with bird shot ( this is popular back home) or just leave them for the yotes. Whats the difference in that and collars you ask, well, with the collars, the dogs don't know you did it. I have seen good solid rabbit dogs ruined by whipping. THey go shy or timid around people and I have seen way to many dogs made gun shy by shooting them with bird shot. I just want to know a better way or a suggestion and I will be glad to try it. Heck, PM me if you don't want to put it on the board.

[Bev]

Wingpatch, don't be so hard on your fellow beaglers! I'm sure one or two of us are real houndsmen/women......

Many on this thread were asked to explain... no, let me rephrase that - pressured to hear other deer-breaking methods, so y'all got them. Nobody says we have to do what someone else does - the info is just out there. No need for anyone to get personal or offended - just take it for what it's worth.

I was wondering how many pages we'd go through before this topic went south. It always ends the same.

[Beagleman973]

Bev,

You're right! Things do have a way of turning south as you say. Hounds tend to run trash some times and people get offended when someone has different view points or questions their ideas.

You have to keep an open mind. I don't know about the rest of you, but I learn something about dogs every time I take them out. No two are the same, and no two can be trained exactly the same.

This is a good place to exchange views, thoughts and different training methods. Some I've read about, not just on this thread, I wouldn't use at all, completely disagree with them. Some I've read are pretty good, wish I had thought of them myself. The day you quit learning is the day you are dead. The day you quit wanting to learn is the day you should sell all your dogs.

In my opinion it's ok to ask someone to explain themselves better, or to tell them you disagree with their idea and why. Personal attacks don't help, and may stop some from posting in the future and we might all miss a great training tip that they knew because they don't post anymore.

[bob huffman]

Wingpatch, you stated several differant viewpoints and in the last one you called me a rocket scientist and doubted I was a houndsman. You are probably right, but seeing as how you are wise, you probably want some kind of proof of that don't you? By your info it says you live in MO. I figure there is no better proof of a mans kennel than to see it in action. Lucky for you I only live in Iowa so what say you and I get together for a little hunt. I will bring a 15 month old pup and you can bring whatever dog you want that you have bred and owned the parents, grandparents and great grandparents. We will see if I am a rocket scientist or a houndsman. Little Tug here, she ain't the prettiest dog in the world and she don't have no titles but the last time I ran her Tuesday, we were in a very thick ditch with logs and everykind of weed and bush and vine you can want. before I caught her she ran one for about 45 minutes with 1 check that lasted about a minute and 2 little checks of about 5 to 10 seconds, and the rest of the run was just solid sweet hound music. I don't mean walk the rabbit either but moving it in a steady consistant way and in a hurry. I am sure a houndsman of your caliber has hounds better than my little puppy and I am very anxious to see them. Since Iowa and MO are so close together it will easy for us to find out. Let me know when and how you want to get together so we can see. Good luck

[bob huffman]

Did I mention that she turns the corners like she is glued to them and has a huge nose. Did I mention that at this point, she is a completely honest pack hound that is somewhere between an SPO in manners, line control, check work and pack pressure and a Midwest on speed. Did I mention that I just sold her 1,000.00 sight unseen. I know you have some experience and have heard the old sayings SEEING IS BELIEVING, WHEN THE TAILGATE DROPS THE BS STOPS and last but not least, PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Here is your chance.

[bob huffman]

On our little run, I would like for the temperature to be over 85 degrees and real muggy just to see if our dogs have any endurance or quit in them. Don't bring a line stealer.

[Chris]

I have found that if you are going to sell pups to the public, it is better to breed dogs that inherit as much of the good behavioral traits as possible. I thought about this years ago when I realized that most people are not great dog trainers and it was very important to produce a dog that will make good IN SPITE OF THE OWNER.

That makes a lot of sense, actually. If that's what a fellow wants to do, but if a guy is like me and wants to have the best possible hunting companions right now, he decides to train them in a way that suits him. For me it's rabbit hunting, so I guess I'll forgo some future convenience to a bad dog owner, maybe? I'll take your word for it.

Before you keep bashing my ideas, you should know that I forgot more about dog training methods by the time you were born than you know now. The last thing you need to do is get into a big argument about canine psychology and sociology with me.

You're right Bob. That's about the last thing I need.

As far as you having forgotten more than I know... you could very well be right. That's somewhat inconsequential to me. I'm not big on theories or psychology and sociology or genetic purity, or anything like that. I'm probably not able to keep up with you in that regard, because I believe you when you say all these things you can do. I believe everyone until I have reason to believe otherwise. You've got genetically pure, well-balanced Beagles, you're smarter than me and have a lot more experience -- that's all OK with me. Me, myself, I'm only interested in the dog right now; while you seem interested in the dog down the road. That's OK. I just can't go hunting with that dog 'down the road'; only the ones I've got right here, so I train them to be as usefull as possible to me while rabbit hunting.

I'm somewhat sad that you took what I typed as bashing. This thread was talking about breaking dogs from running deer. You suggested that a guy would be well served to leave the dog there and come back later; that somehow that would break the dog. I thought that was a pretty dumb idea, and wouldn't at all be advisable to anyone who's dog goes after deer. After rethinking it, I never should have even commented, because you've got every right to your ideas, as we all do. Please accept my apologies.

If dogs truly do reflect the owners personality, maybe that is why yours need a shocking collar.

I really don't follow you. Usually, when someone really educated, like you, is being sarcastic there's a really good underlying slam there somewhere. I'm always up for trading witticisms. So, please explain it to me, because I just don't see it.


To get back to the original question about breaking dogs from running deer, I'll wrap it up by just saying that I highly recommend the use of a good shock collar in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. If you're at all unsure, or if you tend to not be able to control your temper, or consistently exhibit poor judgement, then please don't use a shock collar.

[Chris]

I was wondering how many pages we'd go through before this topic went south. It always ends the same.

You're right. About the worst thing a board visitor can do is stray off subject. It's pretty disrespectful to the guy/gal who started the thread with a legitamate question. I apologize for anything that I did to contribute to the derailment of this thread.

We've all got more in common than we realize -- Beagles.

[AlabamaSwamper]

I agree Chris, leaving dogs is not the answer. If that was the case, then none of my former deer dogs would have been very good.

[wingpatch]

I do not intend on getting into a personal debate with you , You know way to many big words for that.
And as far as going hunting with you , I hunt for the fun of it. I do not compation hunt or gruge hunt with anyone. Be sides that them ditchs you are talking about we call hallers here and unless some of them ditchs are 2 miles long and 200 yards wide I dont have a thing that can Ruin a rabbit Race like your dog, for 45 minutes. And sure don't want one. One more thing before i get off this thing ok, You seem like a honest person So with out looken how many toes does a beagle have? [You looked did.nt you] Wingpatch

[Bev]

Do you all see the pattern here? The perspectives of breeders vs. the perspectives of non-breeders? Some aspire to create the deer-proof hound. Others aspire to utilize their own gundogs on rabbit. Folks are into beagles for different reasons. Is it any wonder they have different goals and methods to reach those goals?

Many folks don't want to tinker with genes. They just want a good hound to rabbit hunt with and they all need training of one kind or another.

[AlabamaSwamper]

Bev, I understand everyone's goals in breeding. I take a little from everyone to try to help me in my breeding. However, there are just some things that you can't breed out of a dog or line of dogs no matter how hard you try. Breaking them, whichever way, is the only answer. I don't bash folks for whipping or shooting their dogs with bird shot but please don't bash us for using the collars. No, I aint talking about you Bev. Saying that shocking a dog is inhumane or causes trauma is just an opinion and its not true. I shock my dogs and they still love me and none have never showed signs of trauma. They come back, tail tucked and when I say hunt, they go jump a rabbit and the race is on. They are as happy as ever. Yes, it hurts a little but so did that dang switch my dad used on me but I didn't curse around him anymore. I don't care how someone breaks a dog as long as they are broke but breeding never, is not now and never will be the answer to it. Just breed the best hounds you have and make the breed better. Beaglers have been trying it for years and it has not worked yet.