Cottontail Breeding, Who has the best right now (Breeding)

[BIG AL]

It is obvious to me that I don't have the best.

[Bev]

I have heard good things about Don Arnold's hounds - heard he had an EXCELLENT bitch line in particular (never enough credit given to the mamas).

I'd like to throw Les Blondino's Kalagha hounds into the ring, and Ronnie Kilgore's Gothard's Creek dogs (going back to Little Man). These are medium to upper medium hounds that get it done right.

If you like a steady, easy-going dog, then get some of Ollie Scott (Hi Hill) and Chester Berry's Stubby dogs. They're not fast dogs, but I've seen them on film and a little in the trials. They will bring a rabbit around for you and search continually.

Of the steppier cottontail hounds, I don't think you can go too wrong with hounds that coming down from the following breeders, some may not be as active as they once were - I've been out of touch for a while:

Kenneth and Nick Hill of Tenn - Hill's Shakerag dogs (consistant, clean, pretty much naturally deer-free, above average foot)
Jim, James and Gregg McGuire of Ohio (Logan Elm - kick butt dogs)
Rick Howard of Southern Ohio - (Howard's Hillbilly stuff - hard line-runners)
Paul Abell, KY - Able's Dark Reds (tremendous desire and good conformation, correct mouths)
Don Bramlett, OH (good hunt and conformation in these dogs - mostly black/tans)
Spicer's of KY (great hunting and trialing dogs. Reliable, above average speed - hard line runners)

I'm omitting some other great beaglers and kennels whose dogs are campaigned on cottontail, but these are breeders that I know had predominantly cottontail bloodlines, or the hare lines are so far back in there it's not that much of a factor - it's their generations of good breeding (and culling) since that made the dogs.

If a person wants to get too technical, about everything with long ears, 4 legs, and under 15" on this continent can be traced back to Blue Caps which were originally brought into Canada.

So those are my picks.

[S.R.Patch]

I think Mr. Card came south to get Blue Cap and Blue Belle...and these came from England...

[Larry G]

Bev, interesting that you did not mention Mr. PD Short, whose hounds have pretty much swamped the SPO trials in recent years. Reason(s)?

[Bev]

I think Mr. Card came south to get Blue Cap and Blue Belle...and these came from England...

...and Mr Hiram Card was from Elora, Ontario. I believe he imported them first and then some came south (as in Indiana with the Gray Linesman stuff?) If I have it backwards, then I apologize. As I said, all our dogs, originated "on this continent" from a Canadian's stock - whether he imported them or not, he kept them bred, and that's where "we" got ours. Looks like he didn't come that far south - Ontario was in the back yard, so to speak.

Okay, here's a clarification of sorts:

Willet Randall started writing for the magazine in 1909 and Glenn Black in 1914. F.B. Zimmer, owner of the Debonaire Beagles of Gloversville, New York conducted a department and actually suggested the name, Hounds and Hunting in 1915. Enamored with beagles at Westminster in 1882, Zim purchased Constance, by importing Ringwood x Norah, a Rowett bitch. Later he bought Blue Cap Jr. and in 1884 imported Bannerman from an English pack of nine inchers, which with many of the better Rowetts gave a start toward a family of his own. It was shortly after this that the first beagle dual champion, Frank Forest sold for $1,000.


Used extensively, Frank Forest and Bannerman were rivals, being recognized as the leading sires. About this time Capt. William Assheton bought and imported from Sir Arthur Ashburnham of England, Blue Cap and Blue Bell, later the foundation of the Blue Cap strain. Some regarded this pair as "Most beautiful in color with blue mottled collars, legs and underparts, black blankets, less cobby than the Rowetts with the sweetest of expressions." These hounds, with Ringleader, were the backbone of the breed with Hiram Card taking up the Blue Caps through the importer, Capt. Assheton.

(full article) http://www.houndsandhunting.com/About.html


Larry, plenty of Short's stuff around, and seem to be doing well for people, but I've never owned any or if I've observed them, no one has pointed out to me that they were Short's blood. I hate to give a recommendation on a line of hounds I don't have at least some first-hand accounting of. All those dogs I listed I've had some personal experience with or owned them. I haven't owned anything out of the Kalagha or Willow lines, but I've seen some good'uns out of them.

I've owned Little Man dogs, some with Stubby, Logan Elm, Spicer's, Hill's, Howard's, Paul Abell's and Bramlett dogs. I can attest for what I had there, and those of like breeding that I was having to trial against at the time.

I might also mention the Surbers of Sugar Creek kennel here in Indiana had some really awesome dogs with some Sand County Penny in the background. Don't think they are breeding anymore.

Dang, there's so many, lol, it would be impossible to list them all, but I think most of the ones I listed you can still get dogs bred that way.

[thornie]

Thought maybe you would like to see article on beagle history.
http://www.barkbytes.com/history/beagle.htm

[Dan Kane]

Thornie, That is a very interesting article on the history of beagling. Thanks for posting it. I am always looking for more of our dogs history.
Recently I had an opportunity to access Canadian Kennel Club (CKC) stud books in the CKC library. The first book is identified as Volume 1 (1889, 1890 and 1891.
Interestingly the first breed listed in the Index is the Beagle. Apparently at that time there couldn't have been breeds starting with the letter A registered with the CKC.
The first beagle listed is Blue Cap DOB Sept 21st/1889 BTW. Sired by Ranger X Music 11 Owner and Breeder G M Gibbs Galt Ontario Canada.
The 2nd beagle listed is Elora Blue Buck #5474 DOB May 18/1889 Sired by Elora Blue Blazer #2878 X Elora Fair Maid #3485 Owner and Breeder Hiram Card Elora Ontario Canada.
I only had time to record the data on a total of 53 Elora beagles, but I intend to return and hopefully be able to record many more.
Hiram Card was recently inducted into the Canadian National Trial Association Hall of Fame. It is the hope of the executive committee to install a Commemorative Plaque in his honor in the Elora museum in the near future. We look upon him as being the originator of Canadian Beagling.

[S.R.Patch]

"with Hiram Card taking up the Blue Caps through their importer, Capt. Assheton."
Yep, I think that's it...
Asheton was from Va., I think... So, Card bought Blue Cap & Blue Belle from Asheton in Va. and took them to Canada and bred them together to get "Cards Blue Cap" the fountainhead of the strain of BlueCaps...

quote
"As I said, all our dogs, originated "on this continent" from a Canadian's stock " /

Not so, what about Capt. William Assheton & Capt. Rowett, and a Mr. Dubbs? would they have no part in credit for our American Beagle also? I think they did abit of breeding on their own, and even on American soil...
I agree, the BlueCap strain is well spread through the American beagle and it's creator Mr. Card is due credit, but it is only a part of it...
To be more correct, I personally would say, we both (Ca/US) owe our improvements and foundation stock to the English Packs for their generosus offerings...

[Bev]

This is all so very interesting. Especially the dates of things. Hiram apparently had Blue Cap litters on the ground by 1891, Gen. Rowett had passed on in 1887, and I don't know if it's been said for sure what year Assheton imported the Blue Caps that eventually went north with Hiram. Did Hiram Card "consign" Assheton to bring the dogs over, or did Assheton do this on his own, keep them a while, breed them, and the Hiram wanted some? Anybody know? Were litters bred here before going north? Too bad we can't get any AKC registration information dating back that far.

For some silly reason, I thought Hiram was responsible for their importation - even though he didn't actually "drive the boat."

In any event, when I made my blanket statement about "all our dogs go back to Blue Cap" I guess I was referring to as you say, the "widespread" distribution (north and south of the CDN border). I'm sure people were hunting rabbits before the Blue Cap time with other imported dogs (perhaps Rowett's?) but one never hears of many descendants from the Rowett line. Any of those in Canada or did they just stay south? Anybody know?

[S.R.Patch]

It's all very hard to decipher. The Packs have always used the year of entry into the pack, along with the hounds name, ie...Halstead Place Searcher 05'. This way names could be repeated and re-used, but the year entered along with the name would single it out. There could be another Halstead Place Searcher, but never another Halstead Place Searcher 05', the next Halstead Place Searcher would be labeled with the year of entery into the Pack, so a son/grandson or greatgrandson might be the Halstead Place Searcher 08' or 12', the year entered would distinguish between the two...
I've found in a book by Otho Paget(Thrope-Satch) titled "Beagles and Beagling" 1923', that Mr. Paget sent to America a Hound called "Florist" but it doesn't give the entry year, so there could be many hounds named Florist, but which is this? This hound was bought from a Mr. Johnson"s Pack and this was about 1895 when this all took place. I tried to get the AKC to realize the importance of this year number being added the the hounds name when I registered my imported hounds, but they said, "No Numbers are Allowed to be Added to Hound Names when Registering...", So my North Bucks Diamond 01' is lost to not knowing the one thing that distinguishes her from any other in the English Stud Book...
Also, there was a bitch bred by the Cheshire, but owned by Mr. Johnson named Bangle, this hound was sent to America after winning Peterborough, and in 1902' also won a first place in New York.
My point is, we need Blue Cap & BlueBell's Pack & entry year in the English Stud Book, to distinguish them from any others with the same name...

***I have the first Baily's book published 1897 and in it are listed Fox Hounds only, no beagle packs.***

[mybeagles]

Keith Wiers has had noted success with his Pine Acres line of dogs. For speed and endurance, few could argue with the success Ken Racine has had with his Birch Lake line.

Branko, Patch, and Northway are big beagle names, but not very specific. You find such a wide variety within this breeding that you must break it down further. When you say Branko, do you mean straight from Branko's kennel, or a guy in Ohio that heavily inbreeds the line. When you say Northway, do you mean directly from Paul's kennel, or from some breeder that repeatedly crosses anything with Northway in the pedigree?

[mtnwaykennel]

I have Branko blooded hounds crossed with Northway blooded hounds. Neither came from the main kennels... most are from reffett's or out of something from reffett's. You said breeds anything from the northway line... I have found thru all my research that Northway blood is one of the hardest to figure out. SO many outcrossess and decisions to look at. I recently went on a searh about Northway voodoo and found some interesting stuff out... but it going to be a challege to pick a good northway line to breed .... but I like what Spur and his offspring bring to the branko.. and what branko brings to the spur... also a little kick of patch wouldn't hurt it... Northway seems to have been lost through the years unlike branko that alot of people have linebred. There is still some out there.. i reckon we just got look to find them.
On topic... Bedlam Maitre D ... heck of a cottontail hound... Gay is up there just a little slow on average.
Bill Woods

[Bev]

Let's not forget the Indian Hills stuff. They added some conformation and that beautiful blanket-backed tri-color. I can't speak for running ability, but I've had a few with crosses in there and it sure didn't seem to hurt it any.

[beaglehandler]

what does Yellow Creek go back to ? i see that in ped's and don't know where it comes from.

[bushytail man]

[b] Get as much Jo Jo Blue as you can. Outstanding rabbit dogs![/b]