linebred gay blood

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Aubrey Holcombe
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Aubrey Holcombe »

Mr. Patch, how well I remember all those, hounds that your have just mentioned, as I was trying to rum some ARHA. Little Pack back at that time. My hound was just not crazy enough or fast enough to run with them Little Pack hounds, that 15 second check would kill me and my mutts, back then. That Pop Fanny hound was not only a good gun dog Mighty Good Looking, Hound as well.

I will never forget, one time me and my two young boys were up at the, N.C.State Championship, with my hounds and there was a big Black man up there that had a young male there that was less than a year old, My two boys seen the big Tri-colored male there on the chains with this fellows other hounds, his name was Bud Friday, they got to talking with Mr. Bud and he said that he brought that young male up to the Big hunt to Sale, he wanted $200 for him, so they come telling me what a nice looking hound that was, asking me to buy them that hound, to gun hunt with. When we was ready to go after the hunt was over, I took a look and they were correct that was a good looking pup, he was a Mountain Run Digger, male pup, pure Gay breed, and excellent conformation! I got interested and looked up the owner, he said that he was running real good had a good mouth, and hunted hard, just not a Little Pack speed, which I was O.K. as my gun dogs was not that speed either back then, so I made him an offer and he said No Way? We start to pull off the boys was about to get excite thinking that I was going to leave without the hound, then Mr. Bud Friday, shouts Stop, think I will just let your boys have that big good looking male pup!

So that was not my first Gay breed hound, but he was the last one that I ever owned ! He was a joy to run he had the best mouth that I ever heard on a Beagle hound,, he was Loud as a Ga. Coon Dog, and he hunted as hard as any hound that I had at that time, the Progressive Pack was just getting started up back at that time, it was in the late 1980's I took that big male to a good many Trials and he did mighty well, his only problems was these Ga. White Tails !! I caught him one morning and I was pretty quick on the foot back at that time, as I didn't have a shock collar back then, I was in a clear cut, seen the deer get up and heard this big male open up, not another hound open,, so I took off running
got out in front of the hound right where the deer crossed was waiting with a big stick that I was using as a walking stick,, I hit the big boy with only one stroke and knocked him out, fellow with me said you just Killed that hound !! I walked off going to leave him there, but after a short time he did get up and came on to the truck,He never ran another deer and was as good as I owned at the time,, we gun that big boy and was winning the Sunshine Mills Hound Of the year, in the Open class Progressive Pack trials,, he won the S.C. State Championship, was in first place when I took him down to Oak Grove, La. for a big Regional hunt, he was in a cast that had a hot female, and they finally had to get her up and D. Q. I was mighty proud of my big tri-colored male, I name him "Bud Friday" and was winning ever week end but that hot female in La got him in trouble as he tested positive for the Big "B" had to put him down..

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
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S.R.Patch
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by S.R.Patch »

Very sorry for your luck with the Bud hound.

Gerald Hale brought Sam down to me. He was always trying out new hounds and went through more hounds than anyone I knew. He wanted hard hunting hounds with speed but also hounds that would handle good, he had no patience for a hard headed hound that wouldn't listen. I got Sam on a trade for some pups.

Later when I got Ivory & Peaches Patch, Gerald came down to hunt for the month. The first time we went out it was frozen and snowing sideways, I thought "boy what a day to show my new hounds". We went to Old Ben Coal I and turned out next to a highwall dump. The girls struck a rabbit and off they went circling down into the pit. We had a grand seat on top of the highwall and could see everything. The rabbits in and out of the dump and out round the fields, they made me very proud that yr. and when Gerald left, he put in a order for 2 patch pups from Mike Claybaugh, but he was always in-search for a better hound. I think he loved dealing and was never satisfied, the journey was what kept him going.

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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by WELLS WOODS »

My first really good beagle had some Gay blood on her bottom side. Close to Gay Time I think. She was as good as anything I've had. FWR Seven Pines Quick Step Katie was her name. She also had some IFC Adirondack Bobby & FC Indian Hills Majer blood.
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Shady Grove Beagles
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

I certainly have no ax to grind in connection with the Gay dogs.All I can do is comment on what I have seen or experienced first hand over the years with hounds.
Given that I'd like to respond billyboy to a couple of things you said.You mentioned that Mr.Reese stated that" no female ever ran with Baker and very few males".Are you meaning that Baker was so fast or so dominating that other beagles couldn't stay with him or take the front on him?
If that was the case I would offer that very well may have been true in regards to the dogs Frank Reese ran with at that time and in his location and that part of the country.I doubt very much if that were the case if Baker had been run with some of the Large Pack on Hare dogs of that same time in history.
I of course never ran with Gay Baker so I will not try and offer any opinions one way or another on him.
Twenty years ago when I moved to Tennessee some of the first beaglers I met were Frank Clay and William Walls.These guys were die hard breeders/followers of the Gay hounds and were line breeding Baker and others from Reese's kennel.I enjoyed visiting and getting to know both of these hounds men and found them to be very knowledgeable.
I had 3 young dogs I had brought from New Hampshire;one out of IFC Maravic's Blue Ninja,one out of IFC Greenbrier's Birch Haven Merlin and one out of FC Green Mountain Commander.
I ran with Frank Clay once and William Walls once.We parted as friends and a hand shake and with the understanding we wouldn't be running dogs together again.Why?
Because we were running two entirely different types of beagles !!Those Gay dogs were good rabbit dogs but there was absolutely no way they could run with the dogs I had.It was like watching a car get lapped at Talladega.They were on their rabbit and would not pick their heads up and get to the dogs that were out front---problem was they were a football field length behind.
Another thing that was mentioned that I myself don't find true is that you said that some hounds of EVERY line have extra mouth.If your dogs have extra mouth it's because they've been bred that way.
I've been line breeding the same line of beagles for over 20 years now and you'll not find one in my kennel or one that I've sold that any one would consider mouthy.If any thing they probably would be considered a tad on the tight side.That's the way they've been bred as I don't much care for a loose mouth hound,popping in the checks,cold trailing,barking through the checks,etc.
Last but not least let's talk about what you referred to as a "naturally trash proof dog being on the lazy side".
I've been following hounds for 50 years now and for sure back in my earlier days I had plenty of trash races with coon dogs,bear dogs,cat dogs and beagles.I owned probably the trashiest hound I've ever seen.
Ole' Buck was a half Treeing Walker and half Bluetick and he would run every thing in the woods and I mean every thing !This was before shock collars and I'd be embarrassed for you to know how many times I ran that dog down and beat him severely.Didn't make much difference to him.Trashy as he was, he was a game getting ,track driving machine !
I have 4 female beagles in my kennel.Three of them are a grand mother,daughter and grand daughter.They are eat up with hunt ------and have never been shocked for running off game.
Are they naturally trash proof? I would never say never but I will tell you that they have come back to me when other dogs bust out on a track that isn't a rabbit.
The difference in the trashy dogs I had then and the straight dogs I have now is in the breeding and how you start and handle them.
All hounds have been bred to chase and some need some correction to channel their desire but if you've got beagles that are bad to get after deer or fox than you might suspect their back ground.Some lines of beagles just don't seem to care about a deer.
Sorry as I got away from the "Gay "subject.As always JMHO
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Newt
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Newt »

"Mr.Reese stated that" no female ever ran with Baker and very few males"

Mr. Reese was a promoter, he was human. Nothing wrong with that. Also he was in his 70s when he was promoting Gay Baker. Maybe he was suffering, like someone mentioned earlier abut dogs losing their nose and getting mouthy in their old age. ;) I was a young beagler at the time and enjoyed our conversations and letters. Some of his colloquialisms in speech were difficult to understand. I was amazed that a man his age could still take the dogs to the woods, walk those steep trails and walk logs to keep an eye on the pack. He had something that I needed, so I bred my bitch and ignored the bragging. Get an old copy of Hounds and Hunting and see how many gundogs were advertised in the 70s.

Maybe he was serious and that had been his experience. The world was smaller at that time, no internet and no smart phones, no Beagle Bulletin Boards . Traditional Brace dominated the beagle world. There probably were few dogs that could run with Baker in Reese's area of the country.

I will give credit. His hounds could run all day and still keep trucking.
In the early eighties, a group of beaglers around Morristown would get together, turn loose, and run all night. There were at least six of us and each had two or three to run. I had a Gay Baker Bitch, Brandy, my buddy had her litter mate, Diamond, and another friend had a Charley's Ranger bitch, Candy. Charley's Ranger was a litter mate to Gay Baker. I don't remember the breeding of the other beaglers hounds, but I remember their bragging about their performance early in the night. One particular chop mouth dog got a lot of praise. About 10:00 PM dogs started coming back to the camp fire. At midnight the chop mouthed dog was silent. We fell asleep shortly after that, but when we awoke the next morning only three dogs were still running. Brandy, Diamond, and Candy.

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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by WELLS WOODS »

I appreciate anyone that gives a lot of their time in life to breeding & training hunting beagles. Although, in my opinion, a lot of people have let their pride get in their way of doing things that would improve their line of dogs. I read somewhere a quote from a very successful breeder that said you should never shy away from taking advantage of someone else's success. In other words, don't be kennel blind to the point of breeding yourself in the wrong direction or at a slower level forward to keep up with the best.
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Aubrey Holcombe
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Aubrey Holcombe »

Mr.Shady Grove Beagles :

I sure do appreciate what you have to say about Breeding of some Mighty good Gun Dogs. especially the parts about Extra Mouth,, No hunt, and the hound that don't care to run Trash ! I have Experience the very same things happening with my old blood line over the last 20 to 30 years. There was this Cow Boy, here on this very, same web sight that called me a bole face lier, a few days ago, when I said that my pack of hounds,, did not care to run trash !! His handle was "Gunslinger" so that is why I called him a Cowboy !

Anyway, I didn't appreciate his attitude about me, so I have a very bad taste in my mouth, about anyone that calls folks a lyer, and they don't even know me or my hounds, I have the exact same hounds that I been breeding for more that 8 to 10 generation but I have done some out crossing with other mighty fine Gun dogs, over the years,, but if they Trashy, or Mouthey, or don't hunt they are not used in my breeding program.

Sorry folks for the Off Topic, but wanted to say that to Mr. SGB. he is like Mr. E.F. Hutton, when he speaks,, Folks Lister !!

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
ARHA Hall Of Fame, own "The Daddy Rabbit Kennels", Royston, Georgia

billy boy
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by billy boy »

mr. shady grove i don't have an axe to grind either. i respect your knowledge and have talked with you several times on here requesting your opinions on different matters. i even have a little female from some of your breeding, nice little dog . at times she will out run the pack witch consists of mostly gay weir creek. 2 of the females can run with her. those 3 will over-run worse than the others usually and in a longer check the others will come and claim the check. but on the other hand often the faster hounds will claim their on check. i'v'e owned a couple gay males that i thought were pretty footy too fast for me. iv'e also ran with some gay hounds that we're quite a bit slower than what i run. i must admit that my old female is a grand of matthew dillan mcrae but oddly she is the slowest i own and when she was younger i had to break her from running trash. what i said no dog could run with baker it was a quote from frank reese and he meant endurance not foot speed and that is strictly his saying not mine. to set the record straight i don't bash or nit pick any ones hounds but my own. didn't mean to ruffle any ones feathers.

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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Beagle Huntsman »

When Frank was talking about Baker that "no female ever ran with Baker and very few males", he meant endurance. He used to go to his camp and run them all night and he was saying Baker could outlast them. I remember his early Baker ads saying something about running all night and then putting a red fox to ground in 8 hours, or something like that.

Speaking of running them with hare hounds, etc, you know Frank and Howard Stamey did make a couple of trips north to run in LPH and SP trials and did have some success. His hounds were not slow. There was even the LPH FC B&K's Rock owned by Ben Meunnick. Rock was all Gay breeding. Too bad the hare men didn't make more use of that dog.

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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by allniter »

:lol: REMEMBER reading in one of the books years ago where MR. FRANK ran BAKER with his TOOL hanging out -MR. BAKER said if he wouldn't run he was no good to him :nod: :nod:
ALWAY GO BY THE RULES AND NEVER A PROBLEM

Shady Grove Beagles
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Shady Grove Beagles »

Hey billyboy
You sure didn't ruffle my feathers any ! After all .....these are only dogs we're talking about and on the internet too boot !
Probably the Gay dogs I've run with had too much influence from those Brace crosses that Newt and Beaglehuntsman mentioned that Mr. Reese made as they were only medium speed at best.
Beaglehuntsman,you mentioned LPH FC B&K's Rock owned by Ben Muennick as being all Gay breeding.Newt mentioned that Baker was crossed on to a hare bitch to get Rock.
I remember Ben and his wife coming to the trials when I first started going to them.He had a female named FC Muennick's Katrina.Do you think she might have been the "hare bitch" that Newt was referring to that Baker was bred to to produce Rock and that was how Ben ended up with him? Just wondering?
Katrina was sired by IFC Birch Haven Bruiser who was the sire of Greenbrier Branko's Tootsie.Tootsie being the dam of IFC Maravic's Blue Ninja.
I would say that if Mr. Reese was making some crosses on to brace dogs and then possibly tried a cross with a northern hare bred hound that would explain some of the differences in type/style that Newt and others have mentioned.
Always keep in mind whenever I post anything that it's always "Just my humble opinion".I've been at this hound stuff for a long time now but I don't pretend to know everything......heck I probably don't even know half of everything !
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Beagle Huntsman »

If I remember correctly without digging out old magazines, Rock's dam was sired by Dutch Fork Huntmaster, who I believe was the same breeding as Dingus Macrae. Somebody in the Carolinas owned Huntmaster, and Frank bred to him. Gay Blase, one of Frank's males, was sired by Huntmaster, and I think it was a sister to Blase that produced Rock. Seems like Rock's sire may have been Gay Flag, who was by Baker. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. It has been a long time since I have thought about these hounds. But I do know Frank was the breeder of both of Rock's parents.

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TnHoss
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by TnHoss »

Rock was out of Baker and Gay Annie. Annie was out of Huntmaster and Gay Missie with Missie out of FC Williams Pointline Buddy x Gay Fury.Missie was a full sister to Baker just the litter before Baker. Hope this clears some of it up.
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Newt
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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by Newt »

FC B&K Rock. I looked on World Pedigrees

++++++++++++++++++++++FC Williams Pointline Buddy
+++++++++++Gay Baker
++++++++++++++++++++++Gay Fury
FC B&K Rock
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++FC Larmay Huntmaster
+++++++++++++++++++Dutchfork Huntmaster
+++++++++++++++++++++++I++++++++++++FC Cuninghams Annie
+++++++++++Gay Annie
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++FC Willaims Pointline Buddy
+++++++++++++++++++Gay Missie
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Gay Fury

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Re: linebred gay blood

Post by WELLS WOODS »

Trace back some Branko & a lot of other popular bloodlines & you will see the same hounds that Gay breeding goes back to. You will also see some of the same FC's in the slow brace hound pedigrees. This proves that it is up to the breeder to cull his pups in his own way & develop the type of hound he wants over time. The Branko's did it right in my opinion. They stayed with what got them off to a great start & bred Anna's Ann to several top studs. They also produced some great hounds when they bred some bitches to John Dewyse's IFC Trakarab Pacesetter. If they hadn't of lost so many of their best hounds in a barn fire several years ago, they would be even more accomplished breeders. I think they lost a lot of their IFC Branko's Heli-Prop bred hounds from what I was told.
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