Show Beagles qualify in Hunt Test!!
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Bob Huffman
Here is a some of my breeding and I think I have the looks and head shape down to a science. This dog is for sale cheap as my wife says he keeps staring at her and it is giving her the creeps!!! I tell her its all in her imagination but she insists the dog has something against her. I think she is nuts!! What do you think????><><
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Honey Pot Hounds
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I am going to try to answer the question "Why would someone cross show blood with field blood to reduce mouthiness?"
Well, I suspect because the cross does make a much easier dog to live with or sell or place into a home if you are not going to hunt it for one reason or another.
Ask any Beagle rescue worker how hard it is to place a discarded hunting Beagle. Maybe this isn't a big issue with most hunters......I suspect a lot of failed hunting Beagles take one way trips into the woods....but there are a lot of abandoned Beagles that the rescuers attribute to being dumped by hunters, or families that cannot deal with the Beagles in their home, and a much higher percentage of them come from field or COMMERCIAL stock (pet stores, puppy mills) than show. That is why IF you are living with the hounds in your home or if you are selling your culls to average families it is easier done with show stock.
PLEASE don't misunderstand me, I don't mean for this to be a slam on hunting dogs AT ALL. Tell me if I am wrong but I suspect the best, most instinctual, hunters aren't the happiest housedogs???
Well, I suspect because the cross does make a much easier dog to live with or sell or place into a home if you are not going to hunt it for one reason or another.
Ask any Beagle rescue worker how hard it is to place a discarded hunting Beagle. Maybe this isn't a big issue with most hunters......I suspect a lot of failed hunting Beagles take one way trips into the woods....but there are a lot of abandoned Beagles that the rescuers attribute to being dumped by hunters, or families that cannot deal with the Beagles in their home, and a much higher percentage of them come from field or COMMERCIAL stock (pet stores, puppy mills) than show. That is why IF you are living with the hounds in your home or if you are selling your culls to average families it is easier done with show stock.
PLEASE don't misunderstand me, I don't mean for this to be a slam on hunting dogs AT ALL. Tell me if I am wrong but I suspect the best, most instinctual, hunters aren't the happiest housedogs???
Last edited by Honey Pot Hounds on Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cindy
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Bob,
This show beagle of mine can run a rabbit just fine. He's just too patient and dilligent, in my opinion, to be a great rabbit dog. But from what I've heard about some AKC judges/competitions looking for slow hounds that just stay on a track, he'd probably have made quick work in those events. And some people like his style. I just don't personally feel that's what I'd look for in a rabbit dog. Regardless, yes, his nose is tremendous, IMHO. You apparently can claim your stud dog has an exceptional nose with few equals in the world, yet I must substantiate any claims I make. Maybe it's common knowledge that your stud dog has few equals when it comes to his nose. Rest assured my show beagle does just fine in the extreme heat and extreme cold and over all sorts of terrain. And I'm not talking about smelling me or a food bowl from 100 yards away. I'm talking about scenting the small cotton glove of a stranger, laid hours earlier, since buried under over an inch of snow, in an area with other foot and animal traffic, across multiple surfaces, with a heavy crosswind, from nearly 100 yards away, with no track from the stranger laid in between the dog and the glove (which happened last weekend). I imagine you don't run many rabbits with your stud dog on the streets of New York City or some other urban environment, so maybe you're unaware how difficult it is for dogs to track scent for hundreds of yards on pavement. It's a different world. And we're talking about tracking complete strangers the dog knows from a one-time scenting of a handled article of clothing that has many other odors, not the scent of rabbits that drives beagles crazy with desire and that hunting dogs regularly get a whiff of. So, yes, I feel that his nose is tremendous, yet he's got nothing but show breeding. Maybe he's just an exception and a freak. Then again, maybe the same can be said of your stud dog. My point is that just because it's not bred for doesn't mean it's not there, especially when it's something so inherent to the beagle breed as its nose.
Your point about show dogs in field trials something I've made a point of stating lots of times in the past. I wish more show people did them. But there seems to usually only enough time, money, and interest to do one or the other. Show people do their thing, and field people do theirs. I can only do a fraction of the things I wish I could do with my dogs. Few people seem willing or capable of doing both show and field, and it's a shame. Of course, the comments some of them get during the trials regardless of how they perform and the prejudicial judgements made about them certainly doesn't encourage more show people to enter the fray. Ditto for the way many show breeders look at the field trailers.
Do field beagles and show beagles have a genetic predispensity to get diseases the other type of beagle cannot? Do either field beagles or show beagles have a propensity to be unable to produce an enzyme the other type of beagle can? Such significant genetic differences exist between human races. Do they exist between field and show beagles?
This show beagle of mine can run a rabbit just fine. He's just too patient and dilligent, in my opinion, to be a great rabbit dog. But from what I've heard about some AKC judges/competitions looking for slow hounds that just stay on a track, he'd probably have made quick work in those events. And some people like his style. I just don't personally feel that's what I'd look for in a rabbit dog. Regardless, yes, his nose is tremendous, IMHO. You apparently can claim your stud dog has an exceptional nose with few equals in the world, yet I must substantiate any claims I make. Maybe it's common knowledge that your stud dog has few equals when it comes to his nose. Rest assured my show beagle does just fine in the extreme heat and extreme cold and over all sorts of terrain. And I'm not talking about smelling me or a food bowl from 100 yards away. I'm talking about scenting the small cotton glove of a stranger, laid hours earlier, since buried under over an inch of snow, in an area with other foot and animal traffic, across multiple surfaces, with a heavy crosswind, from nearly 100 yards away, with no track from the stranger laid in between the dog and the glove (which happened last weekend). I imagine you don't run many rabbits with your stud dog on the streets of New York City or some other urban environment, so maybe you're unaware how difficult it is for dogs to track scent for hundreds of yards on pavement. It's a different world. And we're talking about tracking complete strangers the dog knows from a one-time scenting of a handled article of clothing that has many other odors, not the scent of rabbits that drives beagles crazy with desire and that hunting dogs regularly get a whiff of. So, yes, I feel that his nose is tremendous, yet he's got nothing but show breeding. Maybe he's just an exception and a freak. Then again, maybe the same can be said of your stud dog. My point is that just because it's not bred for doesn't mean it's not there, especially when it's something so inherent to the beagle breed as its nose.
Your point about show dogs in field trials something I've made a point of stating lots of times in the past. I wish more show people did them. But there seems to usually only enough time, money, and interest to do one or the other. Show people do their thing, and field people do theirs. I can only do a fraction of the things I wish I could do with my dogs. Few people seem willing or capable of doing both show and field, and it's a shame. Of course, the comments some of them get during the trials regardless of how they perform and the prejudicial judgements made about them certainly doesn't encourage more show people to enter the fray. Ditto for the way many show breeders look at the field trailers.
Do field beagles and show beagles have a genetic predispensity to get diseases the other type of beagle cannot? Do either field beagles or show beagles have a propensity to be unable to produce an enzyme the other type of beagle can? Such significant genetic differences exist between human races. Do they exist between field and show beagles?
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Lefgren-Lane
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- Location: MO
HoneyPot wrote "abandoned Beagles that the rescuers attribute to being dumped by hunters, or families that cannot deal with the Beagles in their home, and a much higher percentage of them come from field and grade stock than show."
Duh! Since Show Bred Beagles represent something like 5 percent or less of AKC Reg Beagles and probably less than 1 or 2 per cent of all beagles grade, UKC, ARHA etc. It shold be intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that of all beagles rescued a much larger percentage would come from grade or field lines than show lines. Ease of adoption has nothing to do with the differences in temperment. In my experience the field lines have evry bit if not better (less agressive) temperments than show lines. I had a son of the all-time leading sire of Chs in the UK that in a couple instances ripped blue jeans off me plus punched any number of holes in my legs, forearms and hands until we came to "an understanding". His grand sons and daughters I would not trust with anyone unless I was around. I can tell you a story or two about very high rolling Ch show beagles taking wacks at judges while being examied on the table and one that chewed up the arms etc. of a person holding him outside the ring. (I witnessed all these events.) If there is a problem with over assertiveness etc. I would expect to find it in showlines. The very nature of the show ring, show enviorment etc. it is very desireable to have assertive, alpha types etc. to take to the ring. It is much easier to repress an over assertive pup than it is to try to jazz a shy or backward one up to get it to show "properly" (sic) After 30 years around the AKC Show ring I've been there done that, many many times.
Duh! Since Show Bred Beagles represent something like 5 percent or less of AKC Reg Beagles and probably less than 1 or 2 per cent of all beagles grade, UKC, ARHA etc. It shold be intuitively obvious to the most casual of observers that of all beagles rescued a much larger percentage would come from grade or field lines than show lines. Ease of adoption has nothing to do with the differences in temperment. In my experience the field lines have evry bit if not better (less agressive) temperments than show lines. I had a son of the all-time leading sire of Chs in the UK that in a couple instances ripped blue jeans off me plus punched any number of holes in my legs, forearms and hands until we came to "an understanding". His grand sons and daughters I would not trust with anyone unless I was around. I can tell you a story or two about very high rolling Ch show beagles taking wacks at judges while being examied on the table and one that chewed up the arms etc. of a person holding him outside the ring. (I witnessed all these events.) If there is a problem with over assertiveness etc. I would expect to find it in showlines. The very nature of the show ring, show enviorment etc. it is very desireable to have assertive, alpha types etc. to take to the ring. It is much easier to repress an over assertive pup than it is to try to jazz a shy or backward one up to get it to show "properly" (sic) After 30 years around the AKC Show ring I've been there done that, many many times.
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Bob Huffman
I meant why croos to show dogs to stop mouthiness when there are plenty of hunting strains that will do the same thing. My dogs hardly ever bark in the kennel here in town. They are bred for that. We call them kennel manners. I try to breed the total beagle, not just a specialist. Smelling a human glove under an inch of snow is not close to running a rabbit on ice. Human scent is much stronger. Most common dogs could smell a hours old human glove under an inch of snow. Dogs see the world thru their nose and most have enough scent ability to smell human scent hours old even under extreme conditions. My fmily has bred a lot of racehorses and suppose next you will recommend we cross in show horses to get more speed and endurance. trust me on this one, show confirmation and performance confirmation are most often as differant as night and day. I gaurentee you if you bring that dog over here to run with my stud in 0 degree weather, he will be standing watching him wondering why he is tracking a rabbit when there is no scent. Your scent test just is not the same as running a rabbit track in extreme conditions. It sounds like your dog has a good nose for a show dog. Do you know how much scent a rabbit puts off in 0 degree weather compared to a human. I have had beagles track me a day later to where I let them out to hunt. The truth is that a beagle has a weak nose compared to a Plott hound or Black and Tan etc. Maybe you should cross your dog onto a hunting bitch and you could win some trials.
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Bob Huffman
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Honey Pot Hounds
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Bob,
Your 6 month old girl has a GORGEOUS head. Her head would give her no problems in the show ring. If we wanted to get REALLY PICKY we could ask for a touch darker eye.....before you hit me...MY GIRL COULD USE THE SAME!!
Believe it or not the AKC judges do measure ears to nose and reward nice earsets with long ears......I truly think our breed standard keeps the show breeding in line, for the most part, with what the Beagle was origionally bred for:
The AKC Standard
Approved September 10, 1957
Head
The skull should be fairly long, slightly domed at occiput, with cranium broad and full.
Ears: Ears set on moderately low, long, reaching when drawn out nearly if not quite to the end of the nose; fine in texture, fairly broad -- with almost entire absence of erectile power -- setting close to the head, with the forward edge slightly inturning to the cheek -- rounded at tip.
Eyes: Eyes large, set well apart -- soft and houndlike --expression gentle and pleading; of a brown or hazel color.
Muzzle: Muzzle of medium length -- straight and square-cut -- the stop moderately defined.
Jaws: Level. Lips free from flews; nostrils large and open.
Defects: A very flat skull, narrow across the top; excess of dome, eyes small, sharp and terrierlike, or prominent and protruding; muzzle long, snipy or cut away decidedly below the eyes, or very short. Roman-nosed or upturned giving a dish-faced expression. Ears short, set on high or with a tendency to rise above the point of origin.
Body
Neck and Throat- Neck rising free and light from the shoulders strong in substance yet not loaded, of medium length. The throat clean and free from folds of skin; a slight wrinkle below the angle of the jaw, however, may be allowable.
Defects: A thick, short, cloddy neck carried on a line with the top of the shoulders. Throat showing dewlap and folds of skin to a degree termed "throatiness".
Shoulders and Chest: Shoulders sloping --clean, muscular, not heavy or loaded -- conveying the idea of freedom of action with activity and strength. Chest deep and broad, but not broad enough to interfere with the free play of the shoulders.
Defects: Straight, upright shoulders. Chest disportionately wide or with lack of depth.
Back, Loin and Ribs: Back short, muscular and strong. Loin broad and slightly arched, and the ribs well sprung, giving abundance of lung room.
Defects: very long or swayed or roached back. Flat, narrow loin, flat ribs.
Forelegs and Feet
Forelegs: Straight with plenty of bone in proportion to size of the hound. Pasterns short and straight.
Feet: Close, round and firm. Pad full and hard.
Defects: Out at elbows. Knees knuckled over forward, or bent backward. Forelegs crooked or Dachshundlike. Feet long, open or spreading.
Hips, Thighs, Hind Legs and Feet: Hips and thighs strong and well muscled, giving abundance of propelling power. Stifles strong and well let down. Hocks firm, symmetrical and moderately bent. Feet close and firm.
Defects: Cowhocks, or straight hocks. Lack of muscle and propelling power. Open feet.
Tail
Set moderately high; carried gaily, but not turned forward over the back with slight curve; short as compared with size of the hound; with brush.
Defects: A long tail. Teaport curve or inclined forward from the root. Rat tail with absence of brush.
Coat
A close, hard, hound coat of medium length. Defects: A short, thin coat or of a soft quality.
Color
Any true hound color. Color and markings
General Appearance
A Miniature Foxhound, solid and big for his inches, with the wear-and-tear look of a hound that can last in the chase and follow his quary to the death.
Scale of Points
Head 25 Running Gear 30
Skull 5 Forelegs 10
Ears 10 Hips, Thighs &
Eyes 5 Hind Legs 10
Muzzle 5 Feet 10
Body 35
Neck 5 Coat 5
Chest & Shoulders 15 Stern (Tail) 5
Back, Loin & Ribs 15 TOTAL 100
Varieties
There shall be two varieties:
Thirteen Inch - which shall be for hounds not exceeding 13 inches in height.
Fifteen Inch -- which shall be for hounds over 13 but not exceeding 15 inches in height.
Disqualification
Any hound measuring more than 15 inches shall be disqualified.
Your 6 month old girl has a GORGEOUS head. Her head would give her no problems in the show ring. If we wanted to get REALLY PICKY we could ask for a touch darker eye.....before you hit me...MY GIRL COULD USE THE SAME!!
Believe it or not the AKC judges do measure ears to nose and reward nice earsets with long ears......I truly think our breed standard keeps the show breeding in line, for the most part, with what the Beagle was origionally bred for:
The AKC Standard
Approved September 10, 1957
Head
The skull should be fairly long, slightly domed at occiput, with cranium broad and full.
Ears: Ears set on moderately low, long, reaching when drawn out nearly if not quite to the end of the nose; fine in texture, fairly broad -- with almost entire absence of erectile power -- setting close to the head, with the forward edge slightly inturning to the cheek -- rounded at tip.
Eyes: Eyes large, set well apart -- soft and houndlike --expression gentle and pleading; of a brown or hazel color.
Muzzle: Muzzle of medium length -- straight and square-cut -- the stop moderately defined.
Jaws: Level. Lips free from flews; nostrils large and open.
Defects: A very flat skull, narrow across the top; excess of dome, eyes small, sharp and terrierlike, or prominent and protruding; muzzle long, snipy or cut away decidedly below the eyes, or very short. Roman-nosed or upturned giving a dish-faced expression. Ears short, set on high or with a tendency to rise above the point of origin.
Body
Neck and Throat- Neck rising free and light from the shoulders strong in substance yet not loaded, of medium length. The throat clean and free from folds of skin; a slight wrinkle below the angle of the jaw, however, may be allowable.
Defects: A thick, short, cloddy neck carried on a line with the top of the shoulders. Throat showing dewlap and folds of skin to a degree termed "throatiness".
Shoulders and Chest: Shoulders sloping --clean, muscular, not heavy or loaded -- conveying the idea of freedom of action with activity and strength. Chest deep and broad, but not broad enough to interfere with the free play of the shoulders.
Defects: Straight, upright shoulders. Chest disportionately wide or with lack of depth.
Back, Loin and Ribs: Back short, muscular and strong. Loin broad and slightly arched, and the ribs well sprung, giving abundance of lung room.
Defects: very long or swayed or roached back. Flat, narrow loin, flat ribs.
Forelegs and Feet
Forelegs: Straight with plenty of bone in proportion to size of the hound. Pasterns short and straight.
Feet: Close, round and firm. Pad full and hard.
Defects: Out at elbows. Knees knuckled over forward, or bent backward. Forelegs crooked or Dachshundlike. Feet long, open or spreading.
Hips, Thighs, Hind Legs and Feet: Hips and thighs strong and well muscled, giving abundance of propelling power. Stifles strong and well let down. Hocks firm, symmetrical and moderately bent. Feet close and firm.
Defects: Cowhocks, or straight hocks. Lack of muscle and propelling power. Open feet.
Tail
Set moderately high; carried gaily, but not turned forward over the back with slight curve; short as compared with size of the hound; with brush.
Defects: A long tail. Teaport curve or inclined forward from the root. Rat tail with absence of brush.
Coat
A close, hard, hound coat of medium length. Defects: A short, thin coat or of a soft quality.
Color
Any true hound color. Color and markings
General Appearance
A Miniature Foxhound, solid and big for his inches, with the wear-and-tear look of a hound that can last in the chase and follow his quary to the death.
Scale of Points
Head 25 Running Gear 30
Skull 5 Forelegs 10
Ears 10 Hips, Thighs &
Eyes 5 Hind Legs 10
Muzzle 5 Feet 10
Body 35
Neck 5 Coat 5
Chest & Shoulders 15 Stern (Tail) 5
Back, Loin & Ribs 15 TOTAL 100
Varieties
There shall be two varieties:
Thirteen Inch - which shall be for hounds not exceeding 13 inches in height.
Fifteen Inch -- which shall be for hounds over 13 but not exceeding 15 inches in height.
Disqualification
Any hound measuring more than 15 inches shall be disqualified.
Cindy
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Honey Pot Hounds
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Not to me guest, not to me. Actually I am much too lazy to go hunt the little varmits myself not to mention SKIN the dang thing IF I could hit one 
Cindy
Join the fight to keep your guns & Beagles
http://capwiz.com/naiatrust/home/
Created to fight bad legislation and defend the victims of animal and environmental extremism.
WE NEED YOU!
Join the fight to keep your guns & Beagles
http://capwiz.com/naiatrust/home/
Created to fight bad legislation and defend the victims of animal and environmental extremism.
WE NEED YOU!