rabbit dog VS trial dog

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

For all you guys saying there isn't a difference between trial dogs and hunting dogs I say your not understanding the heart of the issue..

Example:

My copper dog: GREAT JUMP DOG, plenty of hunt, but is real mouthy at times, a little slower than the trial I format, sometimes will back track and he cold trails... I shoot lots of rabbits over him BUT HE WOULD LOOSE EVERY UKC TRIAL I HUNTED HIM IN... Most likely..

My Mya Dog--- Great mouth, Packs up Amazing, picks up checks like a dream, not that great of a jump dog but does have hunt, never uses extra mouth or cold trails.. She can win in the Format I run her in.. and has won several hunts.

Both are good dogs, its just one has what UKC wants in a dog and the other one doesn't... Pure and simple. My dogs would loose every spo hun they ever entered but I did have a dog Flirt who would be competitive in that format..

[mybeagles]

Just because you claim to have dogs that do both doesn't mean they are good at doing both.

While I dont own two styles of dogs, I can see why some would want to. Why is it viewed so negatively that someone would own some cleaner running hounds to hunt over than the dogs they trial? I have judged way to many trials where only a few of the entries would be of any value in a hunt.

The rougher the hounds get at trials the farther away they will become from being good gun dogs.

Mybeagles

[deerhost]

Beagler 5000, Please don't take offense to this but the rabbit dog you described,

My copper dog: GREAT JUMP DOG, plenty of hunt, but is real mouthy at times, a little slower than the trial I format, sometimes will back track and he cold trails... I shoot lots of rabbits over him BUT HE WOULD LOOSE EVERY UKC TRIAL I HUNTED HIM IN... Most likely..

Is a pain in the butt to hunt with. You never know if its going backwards on the track or forwards, when it opens up your always scratching your head thinking is it just mouthing off or is it on a rabbit and when you run them with other dogs at times they screw up other dogs. If a dog is a great jump dog and can bring a rabbit around but is a little rough, then yes I would consider it a rabbit dog, maybe not a trial dog because it may get picked up for being to rough. But a dog that back tracks and is real mouthy as you described is niether a good trial dog or a good rabbit dog. Its s#*ks to hunt over a dog and your alway trying to decide if its back tracking, cold trailing or mouthing off....Again not bashing your hound at all thats Just my opinion.....DH

[bbg]

Just because you claim to have dogs that do both doesn't mean they are good at doing both.

While I dont own two styles of dogs, I can see why some would want to. Why is it viewed so negatively that someone would own some cleaner running hounds to hunt over than the dogs they trial? I have judged way to many trials where only a few of the entries would be of any value in a hunt.

The rougher the hounds get at trials the farther away they will become from being good gun dogs.

Mybeagles

Rough dogs shouldn't be placing at trials.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

Beagler 5000, Please don't take offense to this but the rabbit dog you described,

My copper dog: GREAT JUMP DOG, plenty of hunt, but is real mouthy at times, a little slower than the trial I format, sometimes will back track and he cold trails... I shoot lots of rabbits over him BUT HE WOULD LOOSE EVERY UKC TRIAL I HUNTED HIM IN... Most likely..

Is a pain in the butt to hunt with. You never know if its going backwards on the track or forwards, when it opens up your always scratching your head thinking is it just mouthing off or is it on a rabbit and when you run them with other dogs at times they screw up other dogs. If a dog is a great jump dog and can bring a rabbit around but is a little rough, then yes I would consider it a rabbit dog, maybe not a trial dog because it may get picked up for being to rough. But a dog that back tracks and is real mouthy as you described is niether a good trial dog or a good rabbit dog. Its s#*ks to hunt over a dog and your alway trying to decide if its back tracking, cold trailing or mouthing off....Again not bashing your hound at all thats Just my opinion.....DH

Its a pain in the butt to hunt for 3 hours and not get a rabbit up... If they had a trial where all your judged on is can he find a rabbit, he would have made FC ten times over. He doesn't back track a lot and over the past two years I would say he did it three times.. But he adds to my pack by being a solid jump dog. I don't need him for anything else.. All my other dogs can run the line and figure out checks and jump some rabbits. Plus he has a mouth you can hear for over a quarter of mile so it helps me gauge location.. He is also neutered so that disqualifies him..

I'm just saying there is a reason some people have trial dog and some have just gun dogs. Some people have a dog that has bad conformity and only trial dog that have both. Doesnt make the other dog bad just not trial worty.. Some guys hunt dog who will only run with their packs... or the dog is shy.. etc..

If you ever wanna hunt with him sometime I am sure I can make you change your mind about him being a pain in the butt.. Ok maybe not, he is a pain my Arse but now that he is old he is fun too hunt with.

[chris83]

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Mybeagles[/quote]
Rough dogs shouldn't be placing at trials.[/quote]

I agree, but some guys seem to like a real rough hound fo lp. I have been judgeing lp for 13years and over the last 3-5 they seem to have gotten real rough. There is still some really nice hounds out there and they seam to come through but as a judge its aggravating when a dog swings 200 hundred out of the check and the handler wanders why your not going with his hound.

Abshire they were not my friends just some beaglers, and I agree with you.
They will always make rabbits dogs here first, just wanted to ask thought maybe i was just old school. Glad to see you guys fell the same way.

[deerhost]

Mo. Beagler 5000, Well said my friend....DH

[Ky. Hunter]

Beagler 5000, Please don't take offense to this but the rabbit dog you described,

My copper dog: GREAT JUMP DOG, plenty of hunt, but is real mouthy at times, a little slower than the trial I format, sometimes will back track and he cold trails... I shoot lots of rabbits over him BUT HE WOULD LOOSE EVERY UKC TRIAL I HUNTED HIM IN... Most likely..

Is a pain in the butt to hunt with. You never know if its going backwards on the track or forwards, when it opens up your always scratching your head thinking is it just mouthing off or is it on a rabbit and when you run them with other dogs at times they screw up other dogs. If a dog is a great jump dog and can bring a rabbit around but is a little rough, then yes I would consider it a rabbit dog, maybe not a trial dog because it may get picked up for being to rough. But a dog that back tracks and is real mouthy as you described is niether a good trial dog or a good rabbit dog. Its s#*ks to hunt over a dog and your alway trying to decide if its back tracking, cold trailing or mouthing off....Again not bashing your hound at all thats Just my opinion.....DH

Not bashing your dogs either but I only want one kind of dog and that is one that can get the rabbit back around rather under the gun or in a trial and that is a rabbit dog and a rabbit dog can do it under the gun or in a trial.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

Beagler 5000, Please don't take offense to this but the rabbit dog you described,

My copper dog: GREAT JUMP DOG, plenty of hunt, but is real mouthy at times, a little slower than the trial I format, sometimes will back track and he cold trails... I shoot lots of rabbits over him BUT HE WOULD LOOSE EVERY UKC TRIAL I HUNTED HIM IN... Most likely..

Is a pain in the butt to hunt with. You never know if its going backwards on the track or forwards, when it opens up your always scratching your head thinking is it just mouthing off or is it on a rabbit and when you run them with other dogs at times they screw up other dogs. If a dog is a great jump dog and can bring a rabbit around but is a little rough, then yes I would consider it a rabbit dog, maybe not a trial dog because it may get picked up for being to rough. But a dog that back tracks and is real mouthy as you described is niether a good trial dog or a good rabbit dog. Its s#*ks to hunt over a dog and your alway trying to decide if its back tracking, cold trailing or mouthing off....Again not bashing your hound at all thats Just my opinion.....DH

Not bashing your dogs either but I only want one kind of dog and that is one that can get the rabbit back around rather under the gun or in a trial and that is a rabbit dog and a rabbit dog can do it under the gun or in a trial.

OK- so, if you excluded or just shot all spay/neutered dogs, old dogs past trialing age, dogs with any faults, dogs without perfect conformity, dogs that cold trail, then I suppose you can have a rabbit dog. If you have a dog listed above then your doing it wrong... I am sure if you take your dogs to UKC AKC ARHA LP PP UGBF Brace and all the formats your dog could win them all... or its not worth having right? You could try to get a trial dog to jump like my dog but you would have to buy a LOT of them before you found one.. Thats for sure.. I could trade him for a trial dog but there would be less rabbits to my gun after doing so.

The question was whats the difference between the two and my response, for me, is because I have a dog with a particular skill set that isnt conducive to trialing in my favorite format... So I gun over him instead of trialing. I know a few FC dogs that I would give away before taking them to the field to hunt..

[BCBeagles]

Bottom line to me is rabbit dog is rabbit dog(that interpretation is widely varied by some) and trial dog, to me, is a quality enough hound under the gun for me to take it to compete. They ain't quality under the gun with few flaws they can run for someone else, life is too short to follow around hounds that don't please you!!!

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Bottom line to me is rabbit dog is rabbit dog(that interpretation is widely varied by some) and trial dog, to me, is a quality enough hound under the gun for me to take it to compete. They ain't quality under the gun with few flaws they can run for someone else, life is too short to follow around hounds that don't please you!!!

Amen Jim, the day I gotta feed two different packs is the day I hang er up.

[dog]

i agree , they should be one in the same but im sorry , aint nobody ever going to convince me that a traditional brace trial dog is a rabbit dog , even if it is the most decorated dog out there in that format , sorry

[ANTHONY KERR]

Bottom line to me is rabbit dog is rabbit dog(that interpretation is widely varied by some) and trial dog, to me, is a quality enough hound under the gun for me to take it to compete. They ain't quality under the gun with few flaws they can run for someone else, life is too short to follow around hounds that don't please you!!!

Amen Jim, the day I gotta feed two different packs is the day I hang er up.

My sentiments exactly !

[wvmuskyhunter]

Im with Mo. Beagler 5000. I have a dog that is alittle mouthy. Most of the time in UKC she will minus out. Does that make her not a rabbit dog. I wont go hunting with out her. She does ok in AKC because it doesnt matter if you are alittle mouthy before the rabbit is jumped. I have a few decent upcoming young trial dogs. I have a year old female that wont bark until the rabbit is jumped and nothing extra. She has a 1st and a 2nd in the three trials she has been entered in. The mouther dog is by far my best female. I feed her because evertime she barks she will jump a rabbit. She will run to catch and has excellent check work. In all the trials I have entered her in she has been the continuity of the pack. She keeps things moving when it breaks down. I have a Branko male that is very similar. He barks early too. Now Im not talking cold trail early, but you are always wondering if you will beat the clock. I uess what Im saying is these dogs I run in AKC. The tight mouthed female I run in UKC. They all are rabbit dogs. If you trial them pick the format that suits the dog.

[warddog]

Im with Mo. Beagler 5000. I have a dog that is alittle mouthy. Most of the time in UKC she will minus out. Does that make her not a rabbit dog. I wont go hunting with out her. She does ok in AKC because it doesnt matter if you are alittle mouthy before the rabbit is jumped. I have a few decent upcoming young trial dogs. I have a year old female that wont bark until the rabbit is jumped and nothing extra. She has a 1st and a 2nd in the three trials she has been entered in. The mouther dog is by far my best female. I feed her because evertime she barks she will jump a rabbit. She will run to catch and has excellent check work. In all the trials I have entered her in she has been the continuity of the pack. She keeps things moving when it breaks down. I have a Branko male that is very similar. He barks early too. Now Im not talking cold trail early, but you are always wondering if you will beat the clock. I uess what Im saying is these dogs I run in AKC. The tight mouthed female I run in UKC. They all are rabbit dogs. If you trial them pick the format that suits the dog.

AYE, and there's the rub, man made subjectivity vs. the real life scorecard! Joeyman never seemed to do very well in the trials with his dogs but he sure could pile the tailgate full of bunnies. I'm thinkin maybe he has some rabbit dogs regardless of whethre they have a man made title on them!