PP Trends

DCyr · Post by **DCyr** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:08 pm

In your opinion, Do you believe the push for placing a more conservative style of dog in the PP division been accomplished, is a work in progress, or has resulted in little or no change?

WSRandy · Post by **WSRandy** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:29 pm

Last time I went it was a work in progress that at that point hadnt changed a lot other than dividing people. Rules are rules.........if judges are taught to judge by the book, and then do so, you shouldnt need all the politicians buttering it up. You wouldnt need the 'big shots" spreading the word to minus dogs out. The same guys who beg you to judge were the same ones ready to hang you when you didnt bring back their dog. This has been a massive failure on the part of the leaders of PP. You shouldnt have to have a speech, by the founder, for the people before the biggest trial in the PP world....and say "boys you need to slow em down". You shouldnt need the Chairman begging judges to pick up certain dogs.....judges should know how to judge and if they dont, then they shouldnt be a judge.

Thats my opinion. Thanks for asking

Randy

Lamarr Rhoades · Post by **Lamarr Rhoades** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:58 pm

I think that if he said boys we need to slow them down,he must have a problem.Thats the most stupid thing Ive ever herd.As long as the dog is doing it right,who cares how fast there doing it.I want to start going to proggressive pack hunts but if thats there take on things I dont think I want to be involved.I thought they had a pretty good thing going but if there about going backwards instead of bettering themselves thats just crazy.After reading that comment I have lost interest in it.I think it would be nice to promote a fast clean running dogand I was under the impression thats what proggressive pack was.Thanks for quoting that comment for me.Ill just have to stick with little pack.

WSRandy · Post by **WSRandy** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:49 pm

Lamarr, That wasnt an exact quote of what was said, when I used these things "" was to put in a nutshell what was said. Maybe someone else that was at the Banquet can tell us the exact quote.....but to the best of my memory that was basically what I heard, but it has been 7-8 months ago so dont react on my opinion alone. I do remember a gentleman from down South, a preacher and a good man asked to speak and he said if they are rough and break the rules then they need to be picked up but if they are picking them up simply because of speed and because they were not in group with a couple dominating out front that they were wrong.

Just in my opinion judges should be taking care of the sloppy dogs.....not the guys who no longer run to judge a pack.

Lamarr, I still think you should go try PP at Ashland. They are a good group of guys and gals and who cares if you get picked up...it's just a trophy. You will have a good time if you just go with the intentions of enjoying running dogs with people who eat and sleep beagles. Give it a shot......atleast then you will know what its like.

Take care,
Randy

Post by **Aaron Bartlett** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:27 pm

PP today is different than when it started, there is no question about it. I am not against picking a rough dog up if its not running by the rules(this should be done reguardless of what format) but picking up a dog in a PP hunt because of what foot speed it has is breaking the rules! If NKC wants to "slow" down the PP division then they need to put rules in the rulebook so this can be done. PP has grown because of the changes to a "more aggressive" type of dog. If they want to drag it back to when it started they should be ready for the effects. I have never been to one but I would be willing to bet that the Brace and Gundog divisions have experienced the same type of changes.
One thing I have found is that some of the people that complain about the type or styles of dogs that are being ran in PP or any other format have some serious flaws in their dogs as well but either cant see it because of their blinders or just refuse to admit it.

Just my opinion!

DC · Post by DC » Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:32 pm

Boys in my original post I may have been a little vague by using the word conservitive maybe cleaner would have been a better choice. I personaly prefer a hard hitting front end style of dog as I am a hunter 1st and only field trial for fun. My intent was to get others opinions about whether or not they thought PP has changed in the last few years. Not to drudge up specific situations. or scenarios.

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:41 am

DC wrote: I personaly prefer a hard hitting front end style of dog

By this statement it is clear that if this is the type of dog you run your dogs would get picked up.

I am like Stony

. I did not say I agree with picking them up for that. And thats all I got to say about that.... I mean that all I can say about that.

Good Luck, Paul

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:10 am

My thoughts on the subject is YES, the PP has changed to a rougher, faster hound. Years ago. the PP was a true med fast hound with line control and gears. I know there are still some of these type hounds running in it.
I remember back in the 90's the races were a lot different, the races lasted close to the full hour on a rabbit and it was often that we would have to catch our hounds when the hour was up and the dogs would still be in hot pursuit. Folks were bringing a different type hound back then. The hounds would slot up and if a dog over ran, the second hound would cut it out from behind the first dog. Yes, we had checks but the checks didn't seem to last as long. If your dog got caught skirting. it was minuses. If it pulled the hounds out of a check, it was minuses. Mouthy dogs were minuses. Over running was minuses, ext. It was common for someone (including me) to have a hound minuses out of the cast.
Starting around 2000, the hound type being brought to the trials started changing. It may have been sooner or later in other area's. Folks started bringing dogs that were more on the edge. They would fight for the front and had a good bit more foot. The judges also seemed to be letting the hounds get away with more things. There weren't as many hounds getting minuses and it was rare for a hound to be minuses out. They had a running joke or a name for these type hounds called "Tweeners." A tweener is one that was a little strong for PP but a little easy for LP. Soon Tweeners came to be the norm.
One of the major differences I noticed is the races didn't seem to last long at all. You were lucky in this area to get more than a 10 min long race as the rabbit would hole or the hounds would just loose it by over running ext. It was also harder for the judges to judge because they just couldn't keep up and catch these hounds and minus them.
Now, do I think the judges should pick up faster dogs that are clean??? NO! If the hound can run the rabbit according to the rules, it should be rewarded regardless of speed. I do think that the judges should follow the rule book to the letter and not be afraid to minus out a hound that doesn't conform to the PP rule book. JMO

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 4:47 pm

I have been wanting to go to PP trial ,so I have read and studied the rules, I dont remember reading anything about speed. IF I am mistaken reply back with what the rules say concerning the speed.
Since we are talking about arha, I have a question about Little Pack, why would a person prefer a fast rough dog, the points for Little Pack are for jump ,strike, check. there is no speed and drive points

Big Dog · Post by **Big Dog** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:16 pm

To Donald, The vast majority of your little pack dogs are medium fast. You see some that are super fast and you see some that are upper medium. All beaglers have their likes, me included, I prefer a medium fast to low end fast pack of dogs that can run a rabbit without a whole lot of break downs, I don't mind a little swing in the check area, but nothing crazy and I hate cutting, unfortunately many of us have dogs that can get a little rough at times but consistently deliver the goods, thus their is the need for Little Pack. You must remember that not every dog that runs in Little Pack is rough, their are a lot of Little Pack dogs that can flat out smoke a rabbit.

Big dog

DarrinG · Post by **DarrinG** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:52 pm

I'm gonna inject my 2 cents here and hope I dont offend anyone for that is not my intention.

I used to run PP. For several years I kept true PP type dogs. The last PP trials I attended, if I had not known that I was at a PP trial before hand, I would not have known that I was not at a LP trial. I saw more and more guys carrying wild, rough dogs to PP hunts than what was attending LP or any other format for that matter. I actually overheard a small group of trialers talking at a PP trial once and they were saying how if you wanted to win in PP you needed to bring your LP dogs, that you would have an advantage and could win...that the judges had a harder time keeping up with the no time limit checks in PP on a fast dog and the inexperienced judge would give checks to the fast dog if he opened up front, no matter if the dog was swinging wild, no time limit on checks. I personally saw more wild swinging, cutting foolish dogs the last few PP hunts I went to than in LP and one of the last LP trials I went to I saw better line running and controlled speed than I did in PP. I aint saying there aint wild crazy dogs in LP or any other format, far from it, but what I am saying is I do believe PP has gotten away from what it was intended...a medium speed dog where pack work was as much important as was individual accomplishment within the pack. A guy carrying a true PP style dog to the PP trials aint got much of a chance anymore, not until the judges clean it up and get it back to where it was supposed to be. If there is no difference in the formats, then heck let's just do away with them and have one big free-for-all format! Here is the direct quote from the ARHA website concerning the different formats:

"Our field trials are divided into divisions which feature all the different running styles of rabbit hounds. Fast tracking hounds compete in Little Pack and Big Pack. Medium speed hounds compete in Progressive Pack, and the tighter, line-control hounds compete in Gundog Pack and Gundog Brace."

And here is a direct quote from the ARHA PP Division Section:

"Progressive Pack competition runs a 6-dog cast, generally of medium speed hounds. In addition to being scored for finding and running a rabbit, the hounds also have points subtracted from their scores for infractions involving their work in the pack and in the check areas."

Nothing more than my measley opinion!

WSRandy · Post by **WSRandy** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:34 pm

But.........Has the push to clean up PP by the "big shots" been accomplished, still a work in progress or resulted in little or no change?

I think everyone agrees PP runs a harder hitting dog then they did 10 years ago.......but has PP been cleaned up, still a work in progress or resulted in little or no change?

Randy

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:00 pm

This topic has got me looking over the PP rules agian, and one of these days I want to compete in a PP trial, I think the PP rules are great.
Judges who know hounds and the rules, is the key to it all.
I personaly like the idea that you can recieve +10 pts for holding the line with forward progress ,when the front runnen dog losses the track. I have seen Mid-West SPO dogs hold the track,because other dogs couldnt, its kinda like a nascar with bad tracktion, and your dog has better tires. sometimes its the nose ability ,and not the foot speed when it comes to holding a line with forward progress,better then pack mates.
Im looking forward to attending a PP trial sometime. I just hope the judges know the rule book ,after all who wants to go to a ball game, with a Ref who dont know the rules.

DC · Post by DC » Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:28 pm

Ths is all great guys this is exactly the kind of input I was trying to generate. of course we all have our own likes and dislikes about our hounds. I personaly don't need someone elses opinion about how or what my dog did in a specific situation. I spend countless hours with my dogs in the field under real life hunting conditions in the wild. there is no one. In my opinion, that can under the guide lines of any given format who can accuratley(sp) identify every pos or neg thing about any hound in such a restrictive venue. thus. making "fieldtrials"as we know them somewhat inferior in the true evaluation of houndwork. Does anyone out there believe that the rabbit dictates the the type or length of any given circle and that accountabillity is really the only true true measuring stick we have when it comes down to assessing any hounds true ability? I trial for fun and run for the gun and I am having the time of my life!

Phil · Post by **Phil** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:49 am

Being new to all this could you tell me of some dogs that run midwest spo with the nose and speed to turn the checks like you are talking about? Thanks, Phil

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