no more oversized dogs

[TC]

listen rose and bunny buster first my name is frank miller and yes i judge all the time. and know i was not talking about me mesuring. you go to the top of the shoulders do you know where that is? you slide your hand down the shoulders toward the back there is a very small separation between the shoulders bone and the back bone that is where the stand goes. If that is what your calling the wither then yes but if you are calling the withers the top of the shoulders you are wrong and i have seen several people make that mistake. Like thornie said if the dog stands in a natural stance as to proping the dog you will recieve a difference of a quarter of a inch. Hell i have even seen people with dogs that there hair is so thick and the judge does not take the bar to the bone and stops on the top of the fur cause a dog to gain another eightith of a inch. When a doctor mesurers your height he does not stop on the top of your hair he goes to your scull. RIGHT!!!!! bunny buster i am not trying to get around the rule .which the beagle orginated from england and the standard for a beagle is 13 to 16 anything over or under should not be recogized as a beagle we as americans changed the standard to fit what we believe to be right. FACT!!!!! what i am saying dogs that are on the fence are going to get a raw deal. wait and see!!!!!

Toldyouso,

I believe you are wrong you measure at the top of the whithers: Definition of the whither is:
The withers is the ridge between the shoulder blades of a four-legged animal. In many species it is the tallest point of the body, and in horses and dogs it is the standard place to measure the animal's height (in contrast, cattle are normally measured to the top of the hips). In a properly layed shoulder the point of measure would be directly down the back side of the foreleg, however if a dog has pour lay of shoulders it would be forward more therefore you would have a taller dog if measured properly at the top of the whithers ie shoulder blades.

[tinymwoods]

If you are the breed inspector and you measure a dog at 15 1/8", do you say sorry no go, or measure again to make sure. We all make mistakes, as we are just human. A 16" hound is gonna measure over every time, but a 15" hound may stand more proud one time than another. I don't have an over sized dog right now or one that is even close, but if I traveled hours to a hunt and I knew the dog was not over but measured over, I would like a second measurement. Sounds fair. Same breed inspector both times, limit of maybe two measurements. Just seems fair in-case there was human error.

[TC]

I WILL measure over again, we are All Human so there is always Room For error. If you think there is a Chance that you Could be wrong you OWE it to the Hound to Check Yourself. the owner of the hound Always has the Option Also of Asking the MOH to Check measurement or watch the breed inspector measure.
As a brred inspector If I measure one over by a Small amount i will instruct the owner to Walk the dog around a bit get it relaxed more, You never know, the hound could have just Come out of the box after a long haul and is streaching itself out or All worked up. Give the hound the benifit of the doubt let it walk around a few min then bring it back. This in In UKC by the way.
At the stake One and Done! then the Owner can go to the MOH and dispute the call if they want to. But you figure if the Dog is at the stake it has been or Should have been on the lead for a bit and had time to settle down.
Now I will Say I have had a hound that had been measured before And i knew before hand that it made it before! So this time it was just over but not even a 1/8 th inch give the hound the benifit of the doubt and let it ride. this is just a Common Sence type of thing. you know!!! When a hound is Over and when it aint So use your Own best judgement. IF you can Live with your call in all good Consience ya caint ask a fella for more than that.

[toldyouso]

Here i really do not care one way or another so to bunny buster or blaster or what ever easter bunny. I never said any where in any of my post that it is okay. I said and i am sure you will find a way to turn these words around. I just said fix it all the way not just half ass it. My post was never about over size hounds it was about how they was going to fix it and what they are doing is really no different then what we have now. But you would not know this because you probley do not even trial or own a dam dog. signing off on this subject because we can not fix stupid.

[Joeyman]

If you are the breed inspector and you measure a dog at 15 1/8", do you say sorry no go, or measure again to make sure. We all make mistakes, as we are just human. A 16" hound is gonna measure over every time, but a 15" hound may stand more proud one time than another. I don't have an over sized dog right now or one that is even close, but if I traveled hours to a hunt and I knew the dog was not over but measured over, I would like a second measurement. Sounds fair. Same breed inspector both times, limit of maybe two measurements. Just seems fair in-case there was human error.

the last recent Little Pack trials i've atteneded. one of the guys running it. Stated loudly. you can measure your hound 3 times.

[tinymwoods]

If you are the breed inspector and you measure a dog at 15 1/8", do you say sorry no go, or measure again to make sure. We all make mistakes, as we are just human. A 16" hound is gonna measure over every time, but a 15" hound may stand more proud one time than another. I don't have an over sized dog right now or one that is even close, but if I traveled hours to a hunt and I knew the dog was not over but measured over, I would like a second measurement. Sounds fair. Same breed inspector both times, limit of maybe two measurements. Just seems fair in-case there was human error.

the last recent Little Pack trials i've atteneded. one of the guys running it. Stated loudly. you can measure your hound 3 times.

I like that. I also like that they stated it loud before the measuring, so people would not think it just came up for thier buddy.

[Bunnyblaster]

Listen Jim is right we are worrying about the wrong stuff. Size Size Size big deal we do not judge on speed anyhow a little dog can jump a rabbit does size have anything to do with it NO!!!!! A little dog can strike a rabbit does size have anything to do with it NO!!!!!!!! And a check is when that fast dog screws up the chase and that little dog finds it and scores. RIGHT!!!!!!! Now if that little dog can not run for an hour and be within 15 seconds of that big dog that little dog is not worth a crap anyhow. Jim is right no one mesured any dogs the only time things get changed is when certain people do not win . Then and only then we seem to have a problem. Bring back everett morgan we did not have these issues when a houndsman was running this train wreck.

Sorry, I just went off of what you wrote. I guess I was just too stupid to realize you didn't mean what you said about size not mattering.

You have imperfect people trying to judge and score imperfect dogs in imperfect conditions so there are going to be mistakes made. The ones I care about are the mistakes that are more "intentional" than the little ones that aren't. But I don't see how anyone can stick up for those that say who cares about a 1/4" here and a 1/4" there but will ramble on about correctly scoring a dog in the field.

And for the record yea I own a few dogs but am far from an expert. You are right about 2 things though, I don't trial and only because of the second thing you were right about, you can't fix stupid and that's for sure.

Go ahead one more time though and I'll see if I can understand it this time around. Judges don't properly judge in the field and that's a crying shame. Judges that don't properly measure a dog are wrong too but not as wrong as the guy judging in the field so we shouldn't care as much because that's not as important right? Ok, I think I've got it now.......just wanted to make sure.

[Bunnyblaster]

And be careful because the easter bunny is supposed to be coming around in a little over a week so you wouldn't wanna tick him off and have him skip your house now would you.

[Bunnyblaster]

The one thing you said that I do agree with is the fix it but fix it all, don't just do it half@$$ed. But it should apply to all of the rules not just the ones some feel are important.

[Salzer mtn]

Dang Bunny Blaster, As many times as you and i have argued, you have never appologized to me.

[Bunnyblaster]

Dang Bunny Blaster, As many times as you and i have argued, you have never appologized to me.

Maybe I'm turning over a new leaf.

I do tend to get fired up once in a while don't I...........must be my youthful inexperience coming out, who knows. I think sometimes I don't understand how people can't see validity in others(my) opinion. But I don't always do a great job of extending the same courtesy either.

toldyouso, I don't completely agree with everything you've said but that doesn't make you wrong...........or right either.

[jlcopeland]

have been keeping up with the discussion and just realized the only person we havent heard from is fred hausman he is the one that stated all this crap where are you fred lets hear it from the horses mouth

[jlcopeland]

have been keeping up with the discussion and just realized the only person we havent heard from is fred hausman he is the one that stated all this crap where are you fred lets hear it from the horses mouth

[cpuckett]

just because a dog won't stand don't mean that the owner beat the crap out of it.i have had a few dog's that just did'nt like u to put your hands on them period,the IRENE dog that i sold to WFO kennels dont hardly wanting u to touch her at all,and she is no were near 15 inches,some dogs are just skittish acting from birth.some it's bred in and some just go have a freak thing happen to them,i know that there are a few out there that do whip and beat a dog and that i don't agree with unless they are doing something wrong.some people have put a tack on the stand droppin it on the dogs back so that when he really does get measured he will automatically coward down in fear and that is wrong..in my opinion..

[COB4190]

I have been following this post for some time. I fail to see why there is so much talk over this subject unless you have a hound that is over 15 inches. I have read the post that NKC is changing the rules. Everett Morgan and the original Board of Directors set up this Division and any hound over 15 inches was not allowed to run in Little Pack. Nothing has changed except the so called houndsmen that continue to bring their 15 inch plus hounds to the trials. These are the same houndsmen that want the clubs and the Judges to follow the rules to the letter of the law. I have read the post that the Official Measurement is a joke and what good is it if the hound can still be challenged at the post! So what they are saying is that all Breed inspectors are crooks! I do not believe this and neither does NKC. If we did, then we would not allow them to measure the hounds. But I have fought the Official Measurement for many years. I have attended another registery that has Official Measurements. NOW THAT WAS A JOKE! I did not want that in Little Pack. To keep everyone honest, we decided to keep the challenge in the rules. I still do not know what the big deal is. We just had 668 hounds at the Little Pack World Hunt and to my knowledge, no one challenged a hound at the casting area. Some would say " Well if no one challenged any hounds, why bother with all of this measuring?" The answer to this is the hound height has got way out of line. Everyone was told at the World Hunt in 2009 that if we did not clean up the size of these hounds, NKC would. Well, the time has come! No one has to have their hound Officially measured if they do not want to. No one is forcing this on you. It just keeps you from traveling a long distance to a hunt and not being able to run your hound because it measures out before the hunt. I have read a post that the same Breed Inspector at a hunt will measure the hounds before the hunt and also if the hound is challenged. This is not true. I announced at the World Hunt that when a hound is challenged, this will be treated as a protest of the measurement of the Breed Inspector. The Master of Hounds will be responsible for measuring the hound if challenged. I made this announcement 8 months before it will be required. After the announcement, I had very few questions. Some not many. We are giving everyone plenty of time to decide if they want their hound Officially measured before the Jan. 1, 2012 deadline. You can have your hound Officially measured at any ARHA event by any licensed Breed Inspector. A letter will be sent to all Little Pack clubs in May outlining eveything I have spoken of. It is time for the true Houndsmen to step up to the plate and go by the rules. I am sure there will be individuals that will twist and read between the lines and continue this topic for along time. Their time would be better spent running their hounds instead of their mouths. This will be the only post I make on this subject. Fred Hausmann/Chairman of the Board/Little Pack Division