is there to much paper breeding

[Yang]

To me it doesn't matter if other beaglers are breeding paper to paper, matter of fact, it doesn't matter what they breed at all. Most important thing in beagling is that people continue to keep this sport alive. To tell you the truth, the secret to breeding is not in the dogs. The secret to a successfull breeding is your self. Everyone wants the best, but only few and far in between will actually strive for it. Noticed successfull big name kennels floating on top at most trials? It's not his dog performing, it's the owner himself performing. He has the eye to make the cuts and make the big bang breedings.

LOL I just watched the movie "Kung Fu Panda." The secret ingredient is yourself not the kung fu.

[South Woods kennel]

Yes it is in the eye of the dogs owner, to be on top it takes allot of time and effort

[eddywilliams]

I believe there is .Some breed dogs because they have a pedigree full of FC or will make a cross because it has a World hunt title ,more likely than not they havent seen 1 dog in the pedigree run and go by what they hear Even if they go that far .

[mtnwaykennel]

There may be some people who breed paper to paper... but for the most part.. the people who view this board are hunters and will breed what they want to hunt. I am a supporter of registered dogs.. and responsible dog owners who know what they have and what they want. To many people get caught up in the "paper don't run rabbits" but to that I just laugh.

You may say that papers mean nothing .. but it is nice to know where the hound comes from.. and those of us that believe in a bloodline can tell you alot about the hounds in the ped.. either ones we have ran with or ones we have researched. How will you know if a grade line of hound has a genetic failure in the line if you have never followed that bloodline.. how would you know this or that about the traits of a line???
Now the answer has always been I have owned this ones sire and know that ones sire.. well guess what that is no different than a registered dog.

In the end it does not matter to those who hate papers on a hound. To those of us that follows it, it matters greatly. It is a drawing line for those who feel to be outlaws in running grade dogs and whooping on them fellers with papers.. but a beagle is a beagle and by god I like them.

Bill Woods

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

Not to go off topic here but i believe that registered dogs have just as many faults OR MORE than unregistered dogs...

like otis has crooked legs and everything he sired but still people do it cause he could flat out run a line and rabbit...
I know of a line of registered dogs with seizure problems and one full line that at a local club here that all have severly faulted teeth.... not one show ch in the peds at all but lots of hbch...

I do like registered dogs better because of name recognition and getting what you want out of a hound but i dont think unregistered dogs are less healthy or run less.... look at the brace dogs, they are registered and so are the westminster show types who can't run at all...

just sayin.....

[hookset]

i believe that registered dogs have just as many faults OR MORE than unregistered dogs...

I don't understand where the OR MORE comes from. Trying to take 'registered' dogs and 'grade' dogs as a whole and compare them is a rediculous job. I realize that some grade dog owners like their hounds and don't care about papers. They can see a registered dog they don't like and spout 'papers don't run a rabbit.' BUT...in no way is that a fair comparison of the two groups of hounds. Most of the people I see that don't like papered dogs is solely because they still want $25 puppies or a good pair of finished hounds for $100 a pair. That's the calls I get about 5 times a day - "I'd like a 3 year old female, deer-proof, good jump dog, easy handled, good line control, etc. for $50....and they don't care about papers!"

There was a discussion on the board about the best jump dogs. People were discussing different lines and their jumping ability and someone posted "a grade dog". What sense does that make? Having a papered dog allows discussions like that one, "this line carries these traits".

Everyone has seen GREAT grade dogs. My favorite dog is grade. I've seen grade dogs that wouldn't chase anything but a biscuit. But how about judging dog to dog, not two groups of this against that.

[brookbro]

Mo.Beagler 5000.....are u sayn dat every pup otis sired has crooked legs?

[NeilKimbrel7]

Performance and paper are equally important. I don't trust everyone to bring the full potential out of dogs. Some may run 7 days a week while others run weekends in gun season only. You don't see what all the dog goes through that has the best performance. Some ppl aren't willing to give a dog the solo time other people will. I do agree you should watch them run if you can. I'm not a fan of everything that does well in trials.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

brook bro- maybe not all but i had the pic of four litters out of four different dams and they all had crooked legs and in the online forums its more than 90 percent of the discussion when people talk about him... i would comfortable saying that at least 65-75 percent were crooked with a guaranteed 100 percent of his offspring carrying a minimum or a recessive gene for the trait-- Thats also what I heard from the owner of in-line blackjack at in-line kennels and he would know!!!!

point being- ITS A MAJOR FAULT and yet people lined up (myself included!!!) to breed him....


Hookset-- my response was to mtnwaykennel when he said,

"How will you know if a grade line of hound has a genetic failure in the line if you have never followed that bloodline.. how would you know this or that about the traits of a line???"

I said "or more" because it may or may not be the case but, I know that some people use say patch or branko or whatever line and line breed it or inbreed it over and over and the "COI" goes up and dogs get defects even while locking in the good traits. With grade dogs you really don't get very high COI because they dont know the lineage and even when they do make crosses they like rather than only sticking with one line and that in itself theoretically would cut down on some of the beagle faults... But I also know that you can't prepare for something you don't know is there either.. hip dysplasia, epilepsy, eye problems to name few that if you don't follow lines can creep in as well.. Maybe its a wash but I would be willing to lay a bet that if you did a dna test like how they test wolves you would find higher percentage of "faults that are not recessive" in registered dogs then unregistered dogs....just in general.. I could be wrong but I doubt it..

Sorry I was just meaning to say in both registered and unregistered dogs genetic faults are WAY WAY TOO COMMON

[Casey Harner]

Performance and paper are equally important. I don't trust everyone to bring the full potential out of dogs. Some may run 7 days a week while others run weekends in gun season only. You don't see what all the dog goes through that has the best performance. Some ppl aren't willing to give a dog the solo time other people will. I do agree you should watch them run if you can. I'm not a fan of everything that does well in trials.

+1. Good Post Neil

[jlboomer]

From my own exsperiance people do to much paper breeding you hear alot say that they would breed to a top notch dog that produces regardless of papers. well for years i kept a stud dog up in my kennel that was grade but from my grandpas old line i could tell you anything about this dogs past and at any given time id have several of his offspring or grandoffspring here in my kennel to let people see run. this dog was a producer. then i had a mediocre hound with a good ped and thats the one they would always pick to breed to and he never produced anything.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

jl- did you tell them he didnt produce anything or did you just let them go off papers.... I am not sure I would keep studding out dog I knew didn't produce anything...

[dhoundman]

thier is to much paper breeding and yet if you go the other way they dog will get worse i don't understand why coon dog and birds have so meany special class for them but beagles are all put in together. i think they should do beagles like coondogs.

[dhoundman]

start with color and running style midwest is fast and a liitle rough so put all the tri color the are fast and rough together. pergressive pack are more controle on the line and in the check do the same. but first they have to get more detailed about what rough and what is slowe or fast you now maybe that is what the probelem is not enough clear running style out thier.

[mtnwaykennel]

Anyone who breeds a hound that has faults that carry from one generation to another has no buisness breeding beagles. That goes for registered or not.

As to the grade dog that you knew his past ... as I said before that is no different than what a registered hound is. You knew the pedigree... that is no different than reading a pedigree and knowing about the hounds.

I can not say I know of anyone who bred paper to paper. Yeah it may be the flavor of the month for some.. but look at what the flavor of the month is doing. And for the most part look at what the hounds in it's pedigree have done.

When I started hunting coonhounds when I was just a pup myself I heard all this crap then as I do now... day in and day out someone is crying about papered hounds.. the price of them and how some people think they are the greatest. To this day .. on a constant basis .. I have yet to see someone put up a grade hound day in and day out to rule over the registered ones. Could it be that they are not hunted like the registered hounds to get the coverage... sure.. but I have yet to see it constantly. And of the offspring of one of them??? Not seen it. I have seen and owned some great grade hounds.. so don't think I am registered only, I'm just saying.