A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Blu Tick Beagler wrote:The book doesn't say anything about a "line" I hear this a lot. It says produce a rabbit. I saw a judge minus a hound after the handles and the judge saw a rabbit come out of the same briar patch as the hounds, but couldn't run it due to bad conditions. The judge said they didn't show him a line. If I was judging the cast it would have been a + 10.....
Not trying to be a smartbutt here but why give a dog any points for anything if he can't run the rabbit. To improve the breed, we must find dogs that can run on even the bad days, not make excuses for them like "conditions".
A dog's greatness should never be measured on how he/she runs on great days but how he handles the bad days.
"No stronger bond exist than that between a man and his dog."
I agree Swamper. Unfortunately, I don't think there is a way to write a rule book on rabbit running and have it bring back the best dog day in and day out. There are too many variables involved. But when there are rules written they have to be followed. Or it might as well just be a free for all and just let the handlers argue over who's dog was the best at the end of each cast.
I didn't take it as a smartass reply, this is how you understand the rule, and that was just my opinion, and how I would award points as a judge. We get some really bad winter days during trials in Jan and Feb.(below zero with blowing snow and wind). I'm not making excuses, somedays even the best ones can't get it done because it's just physically impossible for a hound. I DO look at conditions when judging. Besides if you see it, it is produced in my opinion. I guess until ARHA defines "produced" this is how I see it.
I must agree with Kjohns that there is too much room for interpritation. Take a jump for example. In my area the judge must see the dog jump the rabbit, or the hound has to be all by itself and blast out without stopping for even a breath to get jump points. I've taken trips south of KY such as TN and AL where everything is a jump. I saw a dog bark off the lead last year and get jump points. When I questioned the call. His only rule intrerpritation was "Do you think rabbits fall out of airplanes" I coundn't even get mad.. That was the funniest thing I ever heard. I even had a shirt made with a rabbit falling from an plane with a parachute.
I have to agree with blu tick beagler on this one. There are many interpretations of the LP rules. Some places you go and you can get a jump pretty easy other places it takes an act of congress. I personally couldn't buy one at the World Hunt, but you have to take the bitter with the sweet. I always say there is a jump on every rabbit, sometimes the judge can get it and sometimes he can't.
big dog
Black and Tans, Blue Ticks, and a few others bringing smoke
I saw a dog bark off the lead last year and get jump points.
I don't consider that to be an interpretation problem. That is a flagrant violation of the rules. I agree that in some areas jump points are given much too freely. I am a judge, and I am stingy when awarding jump points. The dog has to flush the rabbit from a set up according to the rules. And the judge has to be able to determine that ONE hound was responsible for the jump before awarding points.
I'll also have to agree blu tick beagler on this one,by the rule if a dog strikes and a rabbit is seen it's plus 10 regardless of if they run it.I will disagree on scoring a jump from the leash.
Since we are talking rules how do ya'll feel on giving strike/jump points for catching a baby rabbit out of the nest?I'm talking little rabbits not big enuff to even run.
Perkins Runnin & Gunnin Kennel
Producing winners both under the gun and in front of the judge! HOF Reproducer GRCH/BCH Perkins Run-n-Gun BuzzSaw - He might be gone,but his blood flows on!
I didn't take it as a smartass reply, this is how you understand the rule, and that was just my opinion, and how I would award points as a judge. We get some really bad winter days during trials in Jan and Feb.(below zero with blowing snow and wind). I'm not making excuses, somedays even the best ones can't get it done because it's just physically impossible for a hound. I DO look at conditions when judging. Besides if you see it, it is produced in my opinion. I guess until ARHA defines "produced" this is how I see it.
I must agree with Kjohns that there is too much room for interpritation. Take a jump for example. In my area the judge must see the dog jump the rabbit, or the hound has to be all by itself and blast out without stopping for even a breath to get jump points. I've taken trips south of KY such as TN and AL where everything is a jump. I saw a dog bark off the lead last year and get jump points. When I questioned the call. His only rule intrerpritation was "Do you think rabbits fall out of airplanes" I coundn't even get mad.. That was the funniest thing I ever heard. I even had a shirt made with a rabbit falling from an plane with a parachute.
Happy running
Sorry, didn't mean to question your judging ability. I was questioning the whole rule process. Had nothing to do with you as a judge. I understand you have to go by the book.
I have no problem with giving jump points to a hound, even if they can't run the rabbit, if you are sure the hound actually flushed it... However, How many times has a hound been put on the clock, a rabbit is seen 20 yards away and some handler wants strike points for this rabbit that only God himself can tell you it's even the scent the dog barked on ??
Mike, that could be a problem. Who in the world would know if the rabbit 20 yards away is THE rabbit or not. Tough call.
Swamper, If you look at it like this, it's a little easier to swallow. The strike is there to judge the dog's ability to 1. find a rabbit and 2. how honest is the dog w/ it's mouth. A strike has no place in judging the dog's ability to run the line. There are other points given for that. So Dog A strikes. ("Hey there's a rabbit here somewhere") the rabbit shoots out and the judge sees it. So the judge has to say, "okay the dog wasn't lying, there was a rabbit there" Now the scoring will begin on whether or not they can run the darn thing. Checks ect...
So theoretically, if you have a dog that was a good strike/jump dog, but couldn't run a line if it's life depended on it. You could keep getting plus points this way. And in rare cases that dog might even win a cast or two. But I think that's the exception and not the rule.
Paul, I have a pet rabbit out back and a big cliff in my backyard. I'll get back to you on the parachuting rabbit when I catch my wife gone long enough to cut up a bedsheet! You and that judge do bring up a good point, though. Let me throw something else into the mix, as if ther wasn't enough already. I freely admit that, especially past midday, there may be a rabbit sitting that doesn't have a scent line behind him that is trackable. Now, either the busy hound that is doing what he should (most often the case when there are heavy briars like there are here) or the loafer who happens on the rabbit by accident (which happens, as I understand, sometimes in farmland) will score a jump. We have judges here who won't score a jump if there are two hounds in the same acre. I score a jump if there are two hounds slotted working the track, if I can determine that the front hound is the one who actually jumps the rabbit, even if they aren't 2 feet apart, as long as one is in front and nearer to the rabbit when it comes out. I like the point Perkins made about the hound catching the rabbit because he is out of place. He then doesn't deserve anything but to be made a house pet in the inner city!
The baby rabbit thing is a tough one, but a rule is a rule. I've actually been beat by it. That rabbit barely had hair on it.
Ramey,
I have to agree, not enough jump points are awarded in my part of the country. I would also score the the front hound in that case. You bring up a good point. If I have two hounds working their tails off and 2 or 3 standing I do my best to figure out which one jumped it, they earned it in my book. Too bad we can't split jump points, the rule only says "The judge shall award 30 points for a jump" doesn't say we can't give 15 each to two hounds.LOL
Jump Points are near and dear to my heart. I lost my cast at the World Hunt because the judge stated " I don't give jumps unless I see the rabbit get up", I took Chad Plunkett out on the cast with me so he is a witness. My dog is on one side of a trail 4 dogs are on the other side of the trail, my dog openss and drives out right into a swamp area with standing Cane. The judges see the rabbit slip out the back side. MY score 10 points for a positive strike. Next rabbit, My dog opens and drives out about 50 yards alone the rest of the pack harks in and they run the rabbit the rest of the cast. My score 10 points for a positive strike. I ended up losing the cast by 25 points, but should have been well ahead. I try to give a jump when it is at all possible or obvious, but a lot of others don't, especially at big hunts. I saw very few jumps given at the world hunt this year. When you go to a trial it takes a good dog, a good judge and a little luck to win. I still had a great time, but it hurt too.(LOL)
Big Dog
Black and Tans, Blue Ticks, and a few others bringing smoke
Well now you guys are making me wonder if my dog should have lost the first trial I ever went to. Here's what happened. Mine and another dog were in a group of bushes. The other 3 were off on the other side of the trail hunting. My dog shoots out wide open. It was obvious to me he was looking at it and apparently to the judge too, because he gave him the strike and jump. The other dogs owner protested it based on the fact that exact question is on the test. If there are 2 dogs in the brush the judge can't give a jump is what he said. The Master of Hounds agreed and his dog won the cast, mine went home. I being a newbie argued it a little then went home thinking I was wrong. (By the way after a little experience I now know it wasn't even close due to other mistakes made in the cast, but that's beside the point) So is this true? All you judges, is that question on the test? This was the judges first time judging as well.
There is a question on the test that addresses this issue but not the way that you explained it. Here is how I do jumps. If one dog opens up and drives out alone and he is obviously by himself I will give him a jump, If I see it get up in front of a dog I will give it, but If there are two dogs in a brush pile and I can't see them and a rabbit runs out, the first dog to open 3 times will get a strike and I will not give any jump points as I can't determine which dog jumped the rabbit. The reason you can't always give the first dog to open the jump is the other dog may have run the rabbit out on him. I saw this happen in the final cast of the grands at the world hunt this year. Jay Hershberger(sp?) is a top notch judge and made a great call on this. I was a spectator standing on the road. We hear Jim Mcguires Rocky dog sing out like he is looking at a rabbit and drive out. Everybody on the road said Rocky got a strike and a jump. The judges came up and decided to give the jump to Sam Well's Bomber dog. What we found out was that the judges and several handlers could see that Bomber was in a clump of briars and had whimpered but not opened. Rocky was standing on the other side of the briars in the open. The judge saw the rabbit come out of the briars where bomber was and run right in front of Rocky who saw it and took off on it like a bat out of hell. If the jump had been given to the first dog to open in this case it would have definitely been wrong, so the jump thing isn't always a clear picture. I just try to give one when I can. There are two races, the one the spectators hear and the one that the judge see's and they ain't always the same.(LOL)
Big Dog
Black and Tans, Blue Ticks, and a few others bringing smoke
very true big dog i seen this on my 1st time out judgeing with an experienced judge with me ..dog a was in the brush opile dog b outside looking in dog a jumped rabbit but dint kno it at first and dog b opened but hadnt seen rabbit but smelled it the owner thought he had at least a stike but the presence of a hound cann jump a rabbit and when he opened this all happened pretty quick we knew he jumoped it cause we seen it we gave him jump and strike points boy was that guy mad what he heard wasnt what was goin on!
