The system the packs have on breeding is easier because they all take up hunting in the same manner(run to catch). If you study the pedigrees tho...you will find they typically run through two or three bitchlines and these are all inter bred as proven through sucessful past blending of the blood. There are lines that blend well together and those that don't. You won't see a master who doesn't dig out his stud books when looking at a purposed breeding, they all will run the stud books back to see the correct blood is being joined...
What still constitutes a bloodline
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
The Belvoir just gave my packmaster buddy a birthday party and celebrated his 50th year as master of the North Bucks Beagles.
The system the packs have on breeding is easier because they all take up hunting in the same manner(run to catch). If you study the pedigrees tho...you will find they typically run through two or three bitchlines and these are all inter bred as proven through sucessful past blending of the blood. There are lines that blend well together and those that don't. You won't see a master who doesn't dig out his stud books when looking at a purposed breeding, they all will run the stud books back to see the correct blood is being joined...
The system the packs have on breeding is easier because they all take up hunting in the same manner(run to catch). If you study the pedigrees tho...you will find they typically run through two or three bitchlines and these are all inter bred as proven through sucessful past blending of the blood. There are lines that blend well together and those that don't. You won't see a master who doesn't dig out his stud books when looking at a purposed breeding, they all will run the stud books back to see the correct blood is being joined...
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
That's linebreeding. There are many ways to do it but it would seem to me that they are paying close attention to those papers you want to burn. Why do you think they want certain dogs in there as much as possible? Could it be that those dogs are the foundation of their line and they want to keep those genes dominant in the overall gene pool? What they seem to be doing, from what you have posted is culling those hounds that didn't get the dominant traits from the foundation of the line. It's much more complicated than that but it sounds like a linebreeding methodology rather than strictly outcrossing. I'll definitely do some research on these hounds because it sounds like there are things to be learned there.RiverBottom wrote:They will NOT have the same dog show up in the first 5 generations on the pedigree more than once. After that they want certain dogs in there as much as possible.
"Watch your dog and SHUT-UP"
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Thanks Patch, you verified what I was thinking.
"Watch your dog and SHUT-UP"
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Here is something I think would be interesting,for all the guys who have posted on this post, post your hound that your building around and its pedigree and show what your next breeding will be if your going to breed it ( male or female ) and see how much or if any of us have anything in common in what were trying to do.
here is nelly's pedigree
------------------------------------------- Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Turbo Powered by Prop
------------------------------------------- Elk Creeks Blue Babe
-------------------------- Stone Cold by Turbo
------------------------------------------- Larsens Panama Jack
---------------------------------- Cool Breeze Myti Matty
------------------------------------------- Larsens Gold Penny
-----Swings Nelly by Stone
------------------------------------------- Branko's Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Turbo Powered by Prop
------------------------------------------- Elk Creeks Blue Babe
-------------------------- Rineharts Flashing Fannie
------------------------------------------- Mark V' Ace in the Hole
---------------------------------- Sugar Pea
------------------------------------------- Betty Sue
Here is the dog I plan on breeding her to, trying to keep good Hunt, Line Control and Speed.
------------------------------------------- Branko"s Jack of All Trades
---------------------------------- Branko's Curious George
------------------------------------------- Branko"s Spikey
-------------------------- F.C. Buddys Iron Eagle
------------------------------------------- Branko's Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Branko"s Proper Fire on Ice
------------------------------------------- Branko's Ruby Red
----- F.C. Hicksters Intimidator
------------------------------------------- Branko's Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Branko's Dixieland Cody
------------------------------------------- Branko's Singing Sue
-------------------------- Newmans Patty
------------------------------------------- Beech Creek Big Cody
---------------------------------- Lee Bayou Mary III
------------------------------------------- Lee Bayou Rose II
here is nelly's pedigree
------------------------------------------- Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Turbo Powered by Prop
------------------------------------------- Elk Creeks Blue Babe
-------------------------- Stone Cold by Turbo
------------------------------------------- Larsens Panama Jack
---------------------------------- Cool Breeze Myti Matty
------------------------------------------- Larsens Gold Penny
-----Swings Nelly by Stone
------------------------------------------- Branko's Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Turbo Powered by Prop
------------------------------------------- Elk Creeks Blue Babe
-------------------------- Rineharts Flashing Fannie
------------------------------------------- Mark V' Ace in the Hole
---------------------------------- Sugar Pea
------------------------------------------- Betty Sue
Here is the dog I plan on breeding her to, trying to keep good Hunt, Line Control and Speed.
------------------------------------------- Branko"s Jack of All Trades
---------------------------------- Branko's Curious George
------------------------------------------- Branko"s Spikey
-------------------------- F.C. Buddys Iron Eagle
------------------------------------------- Branko's Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Branko"s Proper Fire on Ice
------------------------------------------- Branko's Ruby Red
----- F.C. Hicksters Intimidator
------------------------------------------- Branko's Heli-Prop
---------------------------------- Branko's Dixieland Cody
------------------------------------------- Branko's Singing Sue
-------------------------- Newmans Patty
------------------------------------------- Beech Creek Big Cody
---------------------------------- Lee Bayou Mary III
------------------------------------------- Lee Bayou Rose II
Trent
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
The AMFH and the AMHB are closed associations and have been for a hundred years. Only other reconized packs or asssociations are bred from. They have to be careful on close breeding due to limited gene pool. One book I have goes on about how the Halstead Place Searcher was so overly used as a stud there were not many who did not trace a line back to him. Every hound has it's vices, they try not to close any escape from a bad doubling up in the blood.
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Hope I didnt end this thread I thot it was getting interesting
Trent
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
No one plans to Fail, they fail to Plan
-
RiverBottom
- Posts: 260
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:02 pm
- Location: Minnesota
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Patch, THEY know how to use pedigrees
Heck, with that many hounds over that many years, pedigrees become very important. You also brought up another good topic (run to catch), but that's something for another post...
Swing, you asking ME to post a pedigree
Seriously, I take a different approach than most. I could write a long book trying to explain it, but to keep from boring everyone I'll give you the simplified and shortened version.
After going through many, many beagles over many, many years, my hunting buddy and I have a few now that we realy like. We keep 5 or 6 pups each year from these dogs, some line bred, some inbred, and some outcrossed. Most are born and bred right here. We put them to the test, running hare in Minnesota spring, fall and winter (summer too when I can stand to be in the woods
). We keep pups from the ones that turn out the best for us. Winter is when we evaluate who gets to carry on the line. The ones that perform best running hare in deep snow, old hard crusty snow, temperatures well below zero, day after day are the ones that we keep pups from. Very few pass the test.
Swing, you asking ME to post a pedigree
After going through many, many beagles over many, many years, my hunting buddy and I have a few now that we realy like. We keep 5 or 6 pups each year from these dogs, some line bred, some inbred, and some outcrossed. Most are born and bred right here. We put them to the test, running hare in Minnesota spring, fall and winter (summer too when I can stand to be in the woods
42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Trent,
As I stated I am starting over so my first move will be to purchase some pups from some of the proven breeders.
"klconcrete" has a top snow running female that he is considering crossing with Casidies Rambo. Both are great snow dogs and if they produce as good as themselves the cross will be a success.
Greenbay Shooter would be on the short list. He is a proven snow hound and the feedback I have heard on his pups is good. I dont own any proven gyps so Im at the mercy of other breeders to put a snow hound with him.
Snow run molly holly was a nice female that aaron wanstadt owns that I would like a pup from.
Greenbay kennels is producing a variety of nice dogs and when I get back I would like to see if I can get a pup or two off Joe.
Pine Acres kennel (Keith Wiers)has produced a number of nice hounds and would gladly pick up some pups from his kennel.
Klacking creek kennels ( Harold Janizewski "ski") has produced some real good pups and I would do well to get some pups from that breeding.
The majority of guys that are breeding hard for big noses are not Field trial guys and often dont even register their litters. I will be looking to explore my options there as well.
Mybeagles
As I stated I am starting over so my first move will be to purchase some pups from some of the proven breeders.
"klconcrete" has a top snow running female that he is considering crossing with Casidies Rambo. Both are great snow dogs and if they produce as good as themselves the cross will be a success.
Greenbay Shooter would be on the short list. He is a proven snow hound and the feedback I have heard on his pups is good. I dont own any proven gyps so Im at the mercy of other breeders to put a snow hound with him.
Snow run molly holly was a nice female that aaron wanstadt owns that I would like a pup from.
Greenbay kennels is producing a variety of nice dogs and when I get back I would like to see if I can get a pup or two off Joe.
Pine Acres kennel (Keith Wiers)has produced a number of nice hounds and would gladly pick up some pups from his kennel.
Klacking creek kennels ( Harold Janizewski "ski") has produced some real good pups and I would do well to get some pups from that breeding.
The majority of guys that are breeding hard for big noses are not Field trial guys and often dont even register their litters. I will be looking to explore my options there as well.
Mybeagles
Rob’s Ranger Rabbit Hunter (Lefty)
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
Rose City Quad King’s
DogPatch Fly
-
Lone Pine Beagles
- Posts: 945
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:17 am
- Location: Michigan
- Contact:
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
I see Rambo mentioned above.
Just to let people know:
He will be 12 yrs old on March 14th.
He is in excellent health but hard of hearing.
His penis dried up "loaded" on the outside about 2 yrs ago.
It still works....but sometimes takes him awhile especially on the overly "tight" females.
I'm just saying, have a "back up" in case he can't perform.
He has tons of nose and search and ran every saturday for years and never had a day he couldn't circle the rabbit!
He is currently in Grand Ledge, Michigan .... near Lansing.
If anyone wants info on him contact me direct.
andy_ike@yahoo.com or
1-231-832-5489
thanks,
andy
Just to let people know:
He will be 12 yrs old on March 14th.
He is in excellent health but hard of hearing.
His penis dried up "loaded" on the outside about 2 yrs ago.
It still works....but sometimes takes him awhile especially on the overly "tight" females.
I'm just saying, have a "back up" in case he can't perform.
He has tons of nose and search and ran every saturday for years and never had a day he couldn't circle the rabbit!
He is currently in Grand Ledge, Michigan .... near Lansing.
If anyone wants info on him contact me direct.
andy_ike@yahoo.com or
1-231-832-5489
thanks,
andy
-
klrconcrete
- Posts: 442
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:05 am
- Location: Michigan
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Dave, I have talked to Andy twice about breeding to Rambo and both times my old girl did sort of come in but I dont think she would have stood, she is just about 10 now and I would say she is done. I have a loosely line bred daughter of hers that is proving to have the snow running abilities of old mom so maybe she will be the one? All I can say is I hope so. Kurt
Not afraid to think outside the box or walk outside the crowd.
-
straight&narrow
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 7:42 am
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Kurt,
what is the breeding on your female? Just curious.
what is the breeding on your female? Just curious.
-
NorWester1
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:20 pm
- Location: northwestern Ontario, CANADA
- Contact:
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Let me run this hypothetical scenario by everyone and see what kind of responses come back.
For starters my friend Riverbottom and I decide to embark on an experiment in breeding rabbit hounds.
Lets also say that Riverbottom had a dog, we'll pretend it was Dingus Mcrae, and he bred the wheels off him for 5 years, keeping everything he produced. After which he sent Dingus to me and I bred him for the next 5 years keeping every dog off him.
Now for 5 or so generations Riverbottom linebreeds, inbreeds, outcrosses his Dingus decendants. The traits and characteristics that he selects for are super fast, heads up, hot nosed hounds that reach wide in the check and are known to be very competitive. He culls ruthlessly to achieve this goal and at the end of 5 or so generations he is successful at producing the traits and characteristics he wants consistently. An interesting side note is that the resulting descendant at the end of his program is about 35 % Dingus Mcrae when worked out with a neat little math equation.
Meanwhile for 5 or so generations I have been linebreeding, inbreeding, and outcrossing MY Dingus decendants. The traits and characteristics I select for are slow, brace style hounds that not only don't run with their heads up, they show no side to side movement when on the line with their noses glued to the track, they possess a cold nose, and work a super tight check. I cull ruthlessly and at the end of 5 or so generations I am successful at producing the traits and characteristics I want consistently. An interesting side note is that the resulting descendant at the end of my program is about 35 % Dingus Mcrae when worked out with a neat little math equation.
So here's the questions.
If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us?
Even though neither of us ever saw Dingus hunt or run, are the descendants that either of us possess indicative of the kind of dog Dingus Mcrae was?
Are the decendants that either one of us possess even related to each other at this point? If so, how? If not, why?
How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?
Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?
For starters my friend Riverbottom and I decide to embark on an experiment in breeding rabbit hounds.
Lets also say that Riverbottom had a dog, we'll pretend it was Dingus Mcrae, and he bred the wheels off him for 5 years, keeping everything he produced. After which he sent Dingus to me and I bred him for the next 5 years keeping every dog off him.
Now for 5 or so generations Riverbottom linebreeds, inbreeds, outcrosses his Dingus decendants. The traits and characteristics that he selects for are super fast, heads up, hot nosed hounds that reach wide in the check and are known to be very competitive. He culls ruthlessly to achieve this goal and at the end of 5 or so generations he is successful at producing the traits and characteristics he wants consistently. An interesting side note is that the resulting descendant at the end of his program is about 35 % Dingus Mcrae when worked out with a neat little math equation.
Meanwhile for 5 or so generations I have been linebreeding, inbreeding, and outcrossing MY Dingus decendants. The traits and characteristics I select for are slow, brace style hounds that not only don't run with their heads up, they show no side to side movement when on the line with their noses glued to the track, they possess a cold nose, and work a super tight check. I cull ruthlessly and at the end of 5 or so generations I am successful at producing the traits and characteristics I want consistently. An interesting side note is that the resulting descendant at the end of my program is about 35 % Dingus Mcrae when worked out with a neat little math equation.
So here's the questions.
If Riverbottom and I make a nice linebreeding to each others stock......will it be a successful breeding that would satisfy both of us?
Even though neither of us ever saw Dingus hunt or run, are the descendants that either of us possess indicative of the kind of dog Dingus Mcrae was?
Are the decendants that either one of us possess even related to each other at this point? If so, how? If not, why?
How much of an impact on the program did the styles of breeding that we each chose to utilize, have?
Finally, on the grand scale of things, what does having 35 % Dingus Mcrae in either of our pedigrees really mean?
-
klrconcrete
- Posts: 442
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:05 am
- Location: Michigan
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
My female is very heavily Muskie Lake bred, I would have to dig out her pedigree to see exactly how it works but there is some linebreeding behind her, it all revolves around a dog called Muskie Lake Eli. The daughter of hers is linebred on Muskie Lake stuff but the common hounds are at least 4 or 5 generations apart. Kurt Robinson
Not afraid to think outside the box or walk outside the crowd.
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
Norwester1, There are more questions that need to be asked in your scenario than there are answers. It's just too broad of a question to be answered. Kinda like asking if I jump out of a plane at the same time you do, will we both hit the same place? There are more unknowns than knowns.
Can't you just state your point rather than create unanswerable questions?
Can't you just state your point rather than create unanswerable questions?
"Watch your dog and SHUT-UP"
-
NorWester1
- Posts: 372
- Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:20 pm
- Location: northwestern Ontario, CANADA
- Contact:
Re: What still constitutes a bloodline
I thought the questions were pretty simple and very answerable Tim. Although things of this nature can be complicated, they don't always have to be 