Breeding for Nose.

[jumpmaster]

I agree with only taking one or two dogs out on the worst days, but when you say that they have to walk it out, I would disagree. If the dog falls to far behind, the scent becomes weaker. If you can get a smart dog to run in a smooth consistant manner, he will have a better shot at bringing the rabbit back to the gun. I own a dog that has correct mouth, can circle a rabbit around in about any condition when solo, but throw another dog down with her, and she will get too competitive to accomplish the task at hand. I have always wondered why a dog that cold trails, seems to be great jump dogs? If lack of brains causes a dog to be mouthy, like I have been told many times, why are they so good at finding rabbits?

[TomMN]

Wow, too much written here for a dumb old country boy like me to read and understand!

I hunt about every weekend here in Minnesota regardless of the weather. Here is what I see:

A dog needs a lot more than nose to run on bad days. Give me a dog that can stay close to the line with at least medium speed, faster is better, does not get competitive but just runs the rabbit, and I can kill rabbits any day of the winter.

I won't keep a babbler, if they are barking they better be on a rabbit track and moving it forward. I don't think nose and extra mouth go together. I've seen lots of coonhounds that were almost silent on track. They weren't any smarter or dumber, or had a better or worse nose than any other dog. They just didn't bark when they ran a track. I don't know why. I do know you can breed for this trait.

My best dogs on the realy bad winter days are also my best dogs in spring, summer and fall. Some of them will cold trail up a rabbit and jump it but not all of them. In fact, the best all weather dog I own will not open on a rabbit until it is jumped.

I can't explain any of this. I realy don't much care why. I'm just telling you what I have learned from hunting on lots of days like today.

Now, if you realy want my opinion on how to breed for nose I would say to forget about field trials and just get out and see as many good dogs run on bad days as you possibly can. Buy, breed to, or get pups out of the ones that can run easily on days when others can't. Be prepared to spend a lot of money, go through lots of dogs, and spend many years doing it.

[B.Trull]

Big game hounds ??? I would like to see any real study that shows a walker hound has a substanitally better nose than beagle or a German shepherd ???
What gives off more scent a bear or a rabbit ???? If hounds have such superior noses why arent they the dog of choice for the department of homeland defense for bomb dogs ?????

[S.R.Patch]

I think rabbits do have scent glands between the toes, at the rear end and on the head, as I've seen rabbits feeding and watched them rub their cheek and throat area on sprouts they've nibbled as if applying scent to them, also, I believe their breath also carries sent hounds can detect.

As far as being able to smell scent, the old houndsmen use to talk about a hound having good nose, as one having a "chokebore" nose. I use to think of this as meaning like a barrel choke on a shotgun, but later came to understand it's meaning as, likened to the choke on a carburetor.
The moist area of the olfactory patches in the nose where the air carring the diffusion of scent passes, is where the detection message is sent to the brain. The folds of the sensors along with the opening of the air passage create this choke effect. A hounds sense of smell is so many times greater than ours that, I believe, where we view our world mainly by sight, a hound views it's world by sight & smell 50/50, a hound always uses it's nose on everything, if it sees something, it wants to smell it, if it smells something, it want to see it...

Why is a hounds nose wet? Why does the buck deer in rut always licking it's nose, the same with the bull in the lot when the cows are coming in season. The moisture is needed mixed with the air for the proper choke effect for scent detection.
We "sniff" to get a better indication of scent, the air channel opens more when we do this and a turbulence is created, like the air in a carburetor. If we have a cold, we can hardly smell or taste anything, the air channel is restricted and the mucous covers the olfactory sensors. So, it would seem that the way a hounds muzzle and nose are built have a great effect on scent perception. This is the only reasoning I can think of as why one hound can track a rabbit and another cannot, if both hounds are levelheaded in their work...

[Hatfield]

[quote="B.Trull If hounds have such superior noses why arent they the dog of choice for the department of homeland defense for bomb dogs ?????[/quote]

I hound zones out in order to persue through the toughest of areas without quiting. Not the best thing to train for fast commands and snap back control. The ability to be commanded, is what the German Sheppard is bred for first.

[caledonia]

[quote="B.Trull If hounds have such superior noses why arent they the dog of choice for the department of homeland defense for bomb dogs ?????

I hound zones out in order to persue through the toughest of areas without quiting. Not the best thing to train for fast commands and snap back control. The ability to be commanded, is what the German Sheppard is bred for first.[/quote]
I'm Sorry to tell you but Beagles are used for air port defense and drug and bomb dogs in US & Canada.

[lee ga]

TomMN, very good post. im somewhat inclined to believe there is a difference between hounds when it comes to the ability to smell, but i think that brains (experience, concentration, determination, patience, levelheadeness) are more important to a hound when bad conditions are encountered. i read some scientific research that says all beagles should basically have the same ability to smell because they all have the same amount of scent receptors. now i don't know if thats true, because im just a dumb ole boy myself, and besides, science has been wrong in the past. the article was interesting to read though. im not as experienced as a lot of people here, but i have seen my share of hounds and i have seen all different types of hounds mixed together in a pack. over the last few years i have had the oppurtunity to see mouthy, tightmouthed, line control and rough hounds all mixed in the same pack under the same tough conditions. its been my experience that most of the time, they all seem to be able to smell the rabbit, but they all react to that smell differently. i have seen mouthy hounds fail miserably in tough conditions while right next to them is a clean mouth hound kicking butt. its been the other way around plenty of times too. the rough overcompetitive hounds always seem to fail.

[SMITTY1233]

I think more important than Brain power with a great nose is patiences... You have to be able to walk out a track in the worst stuff and most dogs bred up tight to run hard and fast don't posesses this skill, especially with a pack of dogs. The little female that was mentioned in this post earlier will literlaly walk, bark bark bark take the next step until she gets enough scent to pick up her foot a little. The problem with running like this in bad conditions is the rabbit usually out runs its scent. You have to be a real special dog to walk walk walk and then pick up the pace to catch back up... I'm with Skip, most hunters on here have pretty decent dogs but when those extreme conditions hit it seems like they fall back to average or slightly below. 8 times out of 10 you will get decent to good running with these dogs, but what frustrates me is I can only hunt certain times, and if its one of those bad days that sucks... My thinking is if you want nose you better be able to handle a few barks out of place here or there on those good days... It just happens.

[NorWester]

A dog needs a lot more than nose to run on bad days. Give me a dog that can stay close to the line with at least medium speed, faster is better, does not get competitive but just runs the rabbit, and I can kill rabbits any day of the winter.

I've thought about this alot more in the last little while and I agree. If the hound can keep contact with the line and create fewer losses he'll have much better luck than say a stronger nosed hound that runs rougher and is spending all its time (when it doesnt have any to spend) trying make up checks. I also think that a hound that is faster and cleaner that stays up closer on the hare where the scent is stronger won't need as strong a nose as say a medium speed hound. The trouble is finding dogs that are THAT fast AND clean. If you run a pack that will also likely cause problems because the other less abled members of the pack will run beyond their means trying to keep up and cause breakdowns.

[jumpmaster]

norwester, you hit it right on the head in my opinion, I dont know you, but I bet I would like your dogs.As you said, its finding the dog that can run good speed with control, they are far and few between. Especially when packed up, I have not found that yet, I can get it done solo, but the pack part gets em going to fast.

[B.Trull]

[quote="B.Trull If hounds have such superior noses why arent they the dog of choice for the department of homeland defense for bomb dogs ?????

I hound zones out in order to persue through the toughest of areas without quiting. Not the best thing to train for fast commands and snap back control. The ability to be commanded, is what the German Sheppard is bred for first.

I'm Sorry to tell you but Beagles are used for air port defense and drug and bomb dogs in US & Canada.[/quote]


I did not say that ; and thanks for agreeing with the point I am trying to make here. Read dog ( breed) of choice in my statement, , second " the mythical " nose" hound people talk about is a combination of factors in the dogs brain.

Still, give me hunt,brains and conformation; the nose is really part of the dogs brain ( ie hearing, sight,touch )