Is Progresive pack merging into Little pack

[Lynn Perkins]

Rufus, Don't ya'll Kentucky boys go to arguing with each other as who's the BIGGEST TIME!!!!!!! I'm not qualified to be the judge. I might judge better on who's the BIGGEST BSer though.

I just got the Rabbit Hunter Magazine and my son noticed ARHA LP Trials are way down in numbers of dogs showing up so far this trial season.
Talked to a friend that trials LP and wins BIG TIME in my opinion and not from Kentucky and had the Indiana State called to my attention as an example too.

Wonder why?

The BIGGEST BSer would have to be chad blair,thats my vote LOL

John i think 2 things have taken place,Gas prices have been high during most of trialing period and there are justs so many more clubs these days.
Went to the WV state and if i not mistaken numbers for that hunt were up,also the little world had a very good turn out.Good turn out for the grand nationals,ther are just so many hunts that one could go to,and i'm sure most look at it as hey i can go 1 hr down the road or 6 hrs.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

I am with jumpmaster , to bad we aint talking about this over a beer and a pack of dogs . I was fortunate enuff to meet rufus years ago and when it was all said and done he had the blood i wanted, he also sent me in the direction I am currently in . Maybe some variance but he layed my foundation . For that i thank him.

As for trialing , thats a touchy subject with me , I only get to a few The big ones. The only reason then is friends and goodtimes . My buddies are mine with or without trials . If i quit tommorow no love lost . Thanks for the compliment john , I have beeen fortunate to get to the big dance , but only by doing countless hours in the field. Whether it be runnin or gunnin. I have a passion for dogs a true love that very few understand.
My pack is small but I fill i can compete with anyone anywhere.

As far as breeding is concerned , I am not a breeder . Come to think about it dont know the last dog i even bought its been years ago . See i am lucky ,I got 2 ears and one mouth so for years i listened to those that did know . Rufus, Dexter,Will, Lynn, My dad, Bobby Vest several others that brought at least something to the table on breeding , Spare me the labor pains and show me the baby , Thats been my motto for years .As we speak I have 4 dogs 2 males and 2 females I will probaly never leave my house to bred again why would I? I got the best blood i could find (not a fad)And have built myself a wall. I fill good about all my dogs they are not perfect but they are mine to the end. Is my breeding tight well lets just say this . My next cross there will probaly be pigs squealing and banjo music.

[bill (flint river )]

UNCLE!!!!! i have young hounds here that are line breed. i am not against it. it just has to be done rite.

we are 2 diffrent guys , u may not be able to accept my hounds habbits and the same goes for me with your hounds.

i am starting all over, my oldest is a 15 month then a 9 month and the rest fall in from 5 months to almost 4 months. i need to see what i have then weed through it. i am not a trial guy or have had a AKC hound that i thought could win in the midwest. I did try some in the mid to late 90's and decided it wasnt for me.

i am no expert, i just like watching the races. hell myt best hound ever was the crazest SOB ever. he was stupid fast,cheat, swing , kill him self to find a rabbit. was just plain ol rough as a cobe, dam that dog would make me smile.

bill

[back40]

Alabama John,

"Hopefully PP will change also to allow faster close dogs to win so we can trial in both."

In PP it doesn't matter how fast your dog is as long as it doesn't continually bark past & lead others thru the check area and as long as it returns to the point of loss on a check. Not returning to the point of loss after overrunning is the biggest thing I see most LP, AKC Midwest and UKC style hounds do. Not all of them do it, but most that I've seen do and this is why they would get picked up at a PP trial. So I guess like everything else in this hobby, it depends on how you personally define certain things such as "faster and close" or "too rough" and if your definition agrees with a particular format's rules.

The changes you would like to see would require at least getting rid of the "returning to the point of loss" rule and "leading others throught the check area" rule, and I doubt that will happen........at least I hope not. If it did, there would be little reason to have two separate divisions.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

BACK 40

THERE ARE SOME GOOD POINT'S IN YOUR RESPONSE,I DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND,ABOUT LEADING A DOG THROUGH A CHECK,I HAVE SAW DOGS PULLED OUT OF A CHECK.FOR EXAMPLE,,5 HOUNDS ARE CAST.RABBIT IS JUMPED,ALL DOGS ARE IN THE RACE,,,1- DOG PULLS WAY OUT--- 2-- DOGS ARE ABOUT 75 YARDS BEHIND THE FRONT DOG.THE OTHER-- 2-- ABOUT 75 BEHIND THEM.SO NOW YOU HAVE -3-PACKS SO TO SPEAK.THE FRONT DOG BREAKS DOWN .GOES BACK TO THE POINT OF LOSS PICKS THE TRACK UP AND GOES ON ,,THE NEXT-- 2-- MAKE A LOOSE AND ARE WORKING THE CHECK IN CLOSE.THEN THE --2-- IN BACK COME ON BARKING LOUD .THE -2 -THAT ARE WORKING THE CHECK,,HEARS THEM AND GOES BACK TO CHECK THEM.THEN GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL CHECK.THESE -2- KEEP COMMING -AND THESE -2 -KEEP GOING BACK,LET'S HEAR HOW THIS WOULD BE SCORED,AND DON'T FORGET THE 1st HOUND.I HAD NO DOG IN THE RACE AND I DON'T KNOW ANY OF THE JUDGES..........THIS IS NOT FOR ARGUING-------------- JUST ------ LYNN,,,,,SAY'S A GOOD OLE DEBATE --P.P AND L.P.

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

Is dog 1 for sale? I will stay on dog 1 and score him only "Get with dog 1 or you aint scoring" Most would call time out and or akc , get picked up him is not staying in pack , Remember berea rufus? You pull to me not me to you . If dog 1 can get it , score it .

[Pine Mt Beagles]

JIMMY
Old school Northway . Full Throttle no Bottle. I'm down with that.

I'M BUILDING ON IT ALL THE TIME GOT SOME NEW STUFF,, CROSSING,, IN BUT IT ALSO GOES BACK TO MT ZION PETE ABOUT 15%--------

KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[JD Baisden]

Pine Mt. Beagles, It sounds like it is a 1 dog race, and the other 4 dogs need to get the lead out and get caught up to the 1st dog.

[Lynn Perkins]

Should be judging hound #1 only,if he keeps scoring got to stay with him,as long as they don't pull him NO minuses for pulling any dogs.

Sounds like the other hounds need to "Shut Up and Pull Up"

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

Rufus,
Was ol lynards lucy dog in this cast hmm, Had to be dog 1. Man that bitch can fly . Ask jeff brown if ya doubt me.

[back40]

Pine Mt,
"Continually Barking past & leading others thru the Check Area" is simply continuing to bark past where the rabbit turned, pulling the other dogs with it. In most cases a "fast" dog will overrun farther than a "slower" dog but as long as the hound shuts up when he overruns and immediately returns to the point of loss, then it's ok. That's the catch (in my opinion) ..........returning to the point of loss. Some people can't determine where that is, or in a lot of cases they don't really want to know where the point of loss is because then they might have to admit that their hound isn't a Progressive Pack type hound.

In Progressive Pack there is no stated distance for allowable overrunning because most of the time it will depend on scenting conditions. Here's where you will get a lot of disagreement as to how far is too far. I'm not to concerned with how far a hound overruns because from what I've seen, most "rough" hounds don't quite make it back to the point of loss, or instead of returning they will immediately fan out searching forward of the check area. If you watch close enough, the hounds will show you where the point of loss was. You may not know exactly where it is every time, but a houndsman will figure it out pretty quickly.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

Question, If a med fast speed line control dog runs a good line and is not very ruff. And he wins in lp do you belive he can also run pp? And can a fast dog not very rough run in pp? When a dog over runs the line and snaps back quickly only running lets say 10 foot over is he ok in pp? The reason for asking is older lp dogs need new formats maybe pp is it . That is if its ok with stoney and the fish smell has cleared.

[Alabama John]

Apreciate your sincere response Jimmie.

The way I see it is if a fast dog doesn't overrun but 10 feet like in your example and returns to the point of loss, he would do well in PP.
He would not get any points in LP as he would recover and move on before 15 seconds were up.

I had a dog, Ned, I ran in LP once and he jumped the rabbit and ran practically solid for the whole time. Ned was a track dog from he--.
I was tickled with his leading the cast everywhere he went.
My first LP trial.
The other cast members and the judge said he sure could run a rabbit, but was not getting a single 25 point check. Ran too close they said.

I've had numerous fast dogs lead the cast and be a circle ahead as ya'll have described and never had one scored.
In every case, the judge either called time and told me to catch my dog to get the other dogs brought up or mine were called for running off game. Others saw the rabbit. I did as I was told and have never had a cross word.

Trialing is a touchy subject with me too.

I like the visiting and watching, hearing, others dogs run. I seldom participate and some are glad. I'm too old to judge and feel its unfair to ask a judge to strain and chase my fast dogs. Don't blame them for preferring the slower ones to follow.

Pup was tearing up a honeysuckle patch and out came a hog.
Ran Chief almost to the truck and him hollaring all the time to "get it off me". At least that is what it sounded like to me.

[back40]

Your definition of "not very ruff" is probably a lot different than mine, but I doubt there are many WINNING LP dogs that could stay down in Progressive Pack if judged by the rules. Now before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying there aren't some out there, it's just that I've not seen them in my area. If "a dog over runs the line, (shuts up) and snaps back quickly only running lets say 10 foot over" ..........then he would be more than fine in Progressive Pack.

[SilverZuk]

I would love to see these dogs that you guys are talking about.
Run a rabbit check free for an hour or more.
That is flat out amazing running, I guess I need to get some dogs.

I've got a medium speed gip that flat burns through checks when the other dogs breaks down and I have never seen her run check free.
I have only had a handful of rabbits run an hour, or slightly over.

Pass me the bullets, I'm gonna shoot my dogs, sell my house and buy yours.