Breaking from running deer
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Phillip Smith
Bev, good post! Beagleman your right on. Nowhere did I say I shocked my dogs each time I thought they were wrong. I don't know where Joe comes up with some if his comments. If I don't know I don't shock. Also I know which of my dogs I can use more correction on and which ones I can't. I think most good hound men know. I know some don't care and ruin dogs that should be easily corrected without making them shy. Fianlly some good post with good view points not critisizeing other peoples training methods.
Beagleman 973, I understand what you're saying about shocking in anger. I think someone else touched on that, too. I also agree with many points Joe makes, but if you read my post carefully, you'll see I wasn't talking about using extreme methods at all. Here's my last paragraph. That's the point to the whole post:
"I'm not saying be foolish with a collar or discipline. We're all big folks here and those of us with years of experience understand the difference between willful abuse and an honest mistake. Unfortunate things, natural and unnatural are going to happen to our hounds throughout their lives and they need the mental toughness to rebound. That's only common sense."
I will also say (and I think most folks will agree) that if one is the type with a hare-trigger temper, they'd best stay with the "running the hound down" method and keep their fingers off a shock collar control. Perhaps by the time they catch them they will have burnt off some of that initial anger, lol! ...or they could be even 'pisster'
(Yes, that's a word. I made it up, but it works for me.)
"I'm not saying be foolish with a collar or discipline. We're all big folks here and those of us with years of experience understand the difference between willful abuse and an honest mistake. Unfortunate things, natural and unnatural are going to happen to our hounds throughout their lives and they need the mental toughness to rebound. That's only common sense."
I will also say (and I think most folks will agree) that if one is the type with a hare-trigger temper, they'd best stay with the "running the hound down" method and keep their fingers off a shock collar control. Perhaps by the time they catch them they will have burnt off some of that initial anger, lol! ...or they could be even 'pisster'
(Yes, that's a word. I made it up, but it works for me.)
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
You can't argue or disagree with someone that creates their own words. I do agree with that statement, Bev! And I think I've been 'pisster' a few times myself, but it was in my younger days and thankfully there were older wiser "Hound Folk" around!
John
John
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
Wingpatch: Well now then we do agree but I'm still wondering how you confirm the deer run by voice alone? Don't think for a minute that I couldn't shake those St. Bernards for correction. I do it with Shepherds.
Phillip: Again we are in agreement that you must be sure they are deer first regardless of your training method. I'm just not sure of how you confirm it. I'll remind you also that you are telling me that I'm worng. I suppose from your point of view that is okay but it's not okay for me to tell you that I beleive you are wrong. It goes both ways. Squirell dogs are not beagles. I don't know a thing about them but I know they ain't rabbit hounds. The training for the two is not the same. I will continue to speak out about how wrong the e-collar is. I have invited you in my last post to define your oppinion but again you have refused. It doesn't work because you say so it works for a vary specific reason and until you have an understanding of just why and how it works I don't think your in any position to say one way or another if it's good or not. I would be most interested to hear how you made a timid hound bold with an e-collar. There are lots of people whom I agree with just not you this time. Next time I might agree with you.
Bev: top hounds by definition must be sensitive if you think about it and then there is the fact that the beagle as a breed are too timid. Timidity is an unfortunant fact for beagles. That is why a single unfortunant occurance can ruin a top hound. Not so in other breeds but it is beagles we are concerned with. I agree that breeding it out of them is desireable. But since we are dealing with a breeed with an inherant tendancy towrds timidity we must treat them as such.
The top hounds have lots of desire. That desire would tend to make them harder to break off of deer. It is their tractability that must over ride their desire to allow them to be easily taught to not run deer. That is why they must know YOU don't want them to run the deer rather then just letting the shock do the trick.
Phillip: Again we are in agreement that you must be sure they are deer first regardless of your training method. I'm just not sure of how you confirm it. I'll remind you also that you are telling me that I'm worng. I suppose from your point of view that is okay but it's not okay for me to tell you that I beleive you are wrong. It goes both ways. Squirell dogs are not beagles. I don't know a thing about them but I know they ain't rabbit hounds. The training for the two is not the same. I will continue to speak out about how wrong the e-collar is. I have invited you in my last post to define your oppinion but again you have refused. It doesn't work because you say so it works for a vary specific reason and until you have an understanding of just why and how it works I don't think your in any position to say one way or another if it's good or not. I would be most interested to hear how you made a timid hound bold with an e-collar. There are lots of people whom I agree with just not you this time. Next time I might agree with you.
Bev: top hounds by definition must be sensitive if you think about it and then there is the fact that the beagle as a breed are too timid. Timidity is an unfortunant fact for beagles. That is why a single unfortunant occurance can ruin a top hound. Not so in other breeds but it is beagles we are concerned with. I agree that breeding it out of them is desireable. But since we are dealing with a breeed with an inherant tendancy towrds timidity we must treat them as such.
The top hounds have lots of desire. That desire would tend to make them harder to break off of deer. It is their tractability that must over ride their desire to allow them to be easily taught to not run deer. That is why they must know YOU don't want them to run the deer rather then just letting the shock do the trick.
One other point as to the use of ecollars.Everyone "wants" and or wants to breed pups that are bold and to love what they are doing aka chasing the bunny above all.Yet are very biddable.You know like come, down,nope son that is trash and I don't want you running that etc. Getting all those traits and biddable in one's dogs is a rare.
The ecollar if used right will make a dog be biddable and more enjoyable to hunt.Especially the bolder self confident ones.Which by the way are the ones we all like and make the best all around dogs.
It puts handle on em.
It is a modern day widget that has it place.Why have a heart attack running yourself to death after a dog? Or break bones on the pooch when out of breath and you finally catch it ? Yep its a tool and a good one.
Hunt6
The ecollar if used right will make a dog be biddable and more enjoyable to hunt.Especially the bolder self confident ones.Which by the way are the ones we all like and make the best all around dogs.
It puts handle on em.
It is a modern day widget that has it place.Why have a heart attack running yourself to death after a dog? Or break bones on the pooch when out of breath and you finally catch it ? Yep its a tool and a good one.
Hunt6
????
Correct me if i am wrong Joe which i bet you will, I did not say i could tell by voice a dog was running a deer...There are other means to teach a dog what to &what not to do, And over the years i guess i have used alot of them some worked some did'nt. Have you ever heard of useing a toe twitch It works. Bird dog people call it a nerve twitch. It will work for deer too.. each method has it's place.As far as dogs being bold or timid', To me it has nothing to do with bracking a dog, And some of the best dogs i ever saw were just alittle on the man shy side. And i guess i have to agree with you. I feel timid is a trate in beagles... Wingpatch
Re: ????
wingpatch wrote:Correct me if i am wrong Joe which i bet you will, I did not say i could tell by voice a dog was running a deer...There are other means to teach a dog what to &what not to do, And over the years i guess i have used alot of them some worked some did'nt. Have you ever heard of useing a toe twitch It works. Bird dog people call it a nerve twitch. It will work for deer too.. each method has it's place.As far as dogs being bold or timid', To me it has nothing to do with bracking a dog, And some of the best dogs i ever saw were just alittle on the man shy side. And i guess i have to agree with you. I feel timid is a trate in beagles... Wingpatch
O yes joe , There is a differance between A dog & my dog
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
i can think of one time if id had a shock collar on my dog i would have shocked him for running a hare. i wished this happened more often... i didnt think he was running a deer i thought it was a moose... it had been very cold.. everything coated with ice and dogs running ok ,sun came out and it was just like it was raining .. and dogs ran poor for awhile. then the sun was warm and so much difference in temp there was steam or fog .. dog was running without a loss. i was trying as hard as i could to catch him. believe me i would have shocked him if i could... this is one case where joes right ... i would have shocked my dog for running a hare. not the end of the world.... what i do now with a shock collar is i teach them to come... ok so now i changed the rules... if i say come and you dont your getting shocked.. only difference is how hard ill shock them... dogs figure this one out quick... Pisster... i been more pisster than anybody you ever saw... nothing makes me pisster than a trashy dog.... except a dog that would bite me.. the dog i was talking about in the beginning had a spell he thought he was going to be a great deer dog.. i was giveing him a little therapy once and he bit me.. no shock collar... i think that was the pistest ive ever been at a dog and i applied some serious therapy.. it was cold and i had a lot of clothes on and thats only reason dog didnt hurt me... it wasnt a training session i was trying to kill him and he was trying to kill me... that dog wouldnt run anything for awhile after but has never run anything but a hare since and its been 5 years at least.. if other dogs run trash hes coming back to me or hiding under the truck... i have no problem with joe if he wont use a shock collar... i have an easier time keeping my temper with a shock collar.. i have a very hard time staying cool when a dog bites me... the shock collar lets me shake them at a distance.. ive used lots of different methods. joes right in a lot of what he says... ive had collar wise dogs.. the things he warns about can happen... ive been able to ruin dogs with or without a shock collar.. done way more good with collar than without.. almost every bad thing that happens is operator error not the shock collars fault.. i would almost rather give up my gun than my shock collar.. joe i think your wrong but dont ever quit . i never saw a man or hound with more stick than joe.. pete
Wingpatch: See page three. You merely agreed with Phillip.
There are probably many methods people have employed for deer breaking over the years. I am not familiar with the toe twitch but am interested to hear about it.
I disagree about the timidity having no place in the breaking methods for hounds. The idea is to break the hound from running off game while not ruining or setting him back. When your lucky enough to get one of those top hounds you don't want to end up doing something to ruin it; so I beleive you should take their inherant timidity into account when training them.
Pete: I've been wrong about many things before but never anything I was as sure of as this. It was predicted long ago when shock colars were relatively new and the big deal was they were only for deer breaking and only as a last resort, that they would eventually be used for other things besides deer breaking. All the so called collar experts warned against using them for anything except deer breaking but here we are today with them being used for manners training and now even I hear makeing a shy hound bold. You have to take into account that hounds aren't machines; they are living animals and as such there are no short cuts you can safely take with them.
There are probably many methods people have employed for deer breaking over the years. I am not familiar with the toe twitch but am interested to hear about it.
I disagree about the timidity having no place in the breaking methods for hounds. The idea is to break the hound from running off game while not ruining or setting him back. When your lucky enough to get one of those top hounds you don't want to end up doing something to ruin it; so I beleive you should take their inherant timidity into account when training them.
Pete: I've been wrong about many things before but never anything I was as sure of as this. It was predicted long ago when shock colars were relatively new and the big deal was they were only for deer breaking and only as a last resort, that they would eventually be used for other things besides deer breaking. All the so called collar experts warned against using them for anything except deer breaking but here we are today with them being used for manners training and now even I hear makeing a shy hound bold. You have to take into account that hounds aren't machines; they are living animals and as such there are no short cuts you can safely take with them.
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Beagle Boy
junk-runners
Well ,I see we have another hot topic that's causing alot of beliefs and some good methods and methods that are beeing used. I think that there is a better approach .Well what I would do is get rid of all the junk runner's I had and I sure would'nt breed them to anything. I would start with a natrualy clean straight good bloodline of beagle that is from a family of good straight beagle's that don't run junk. Than I would look for a beagle that is naturally straight and from a straight line of beagle's and breed them togeather and you should be well on your way. I know we all had beagle's that you could'nt pay to run junk. That's the one's we all know you want to breed and alway's take hunting cause he or she is nerver any problem. I hope I'm not going to make anyone mad but that's my belief's ,I say forget making the collar company's richer and breed for a cleaner running good handling and junk -free beagle. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Thanks
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bob huffman
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Phillip Smith
Joe, we finally agree on something. When the shock collars first came out it was for trash breaking only. Had one setting and that was high. Now they have 1 through 6 (on Tritronics) and some have a praise tone. And some have a warning tone. For behavior training. Joe also the Feist breed is far more fraigle the the beagle breed. These beagles are some of the strongest willed dogs I've ever fooled with, can take a lot more correction the some of the coondogs and all the Feist I've ever had. I'm sure you want change your mind about the E-collars and neither will I and the hundreds of thousands of other people that beleive in them. So I will shut up about the topic. It has been fun!!
I will say it is very rare I shock my dogs but if the need arises then I have it on and can correct the problem before it gets to be a habit.
I will say it is very rare I shock my dogs but if the need arises then I have it on and can correct the problem before it gets to be a habit.