The American Beagler Forum

what I wanted to know from my last thread that went the wrong way right off the bat is as far as rules in the different formats what are peoples likes and dislikes. I have been trialing for 35 years and now run little pack and progressive and like the rules in both and also like some of the rules in ukc what I would like to know is if we were to start a new format using rules from all the other formats what are some of your favorites and the ones you would not want to see. example do you think a dog should be scored higher for a strike or a check would you use the line like ukc and if yes how would you score it, do you want a judge that has a dog in the cast and the cast votes on everything and so on.

I like the UKC H&H style of hound , and scoring format. I hate the hunting judges, and cast members voting. The solution, non-hunting judges, with the ARHA protest structure.

r.w. ukc says they can't do a non hunting judge do to a couple of reasons one you have to strike your own dog so it is hard to find a handler to know your dog well enough to strike it and they say it would be impossible to get judges without paying them and if they started paying them they would have to raise the entry fee. okay it's no secret I hate the hunting judge out of my first 24 ukc cast the judge won 22 times they say that is an exceptable ratio do to the fact the judges have better dogs then the rest of us. So how would you take care of the strike rule on the dog to allow someone else to handle your dog so you could judge and would you be alright paying a higher entry fee to have a non hunting judge.

I first off would like to say that I like every format I've tried. I wouldn't want to change any of them, however when my buddy and I run our dogs we find ourselves trying to score them. A lot of the time, no matter the format, the top dog on the day would win with any scoring system. Several times, one dog would win say ukc hb format and another may win nkc progressive pk. I've tried nkc little pk, nkc progressive pk, ukc hb, ukc performance pk, akc Midwest spo, and 1 akc southern large pk. Now I will be the first to admit what I do like about each format may because the taylor to what I run and what I dislike about a format may because it doesn't benefit me lol. But I've found in my experiences that each have good points to them. If I could start my own system it would incorporate all. I think the scoring should be rated highest at what is most important and what occurs less often. To me a jump is by far the most important part of a rabbit race. I love a dog that hunts and gets it goin. Next would b a strike because there are more strikes than jumps, but they give the same result...a rabbit race. Next I like a dog that can drive a rabbit and it's points would be scored off lines and be a third tier point system. However I'm not an idiot and I understand a good check dog always has his place in a pack. I would count quick checks, their normally would be more of these than any so score them the lowest like progressive pk (10 pts). For this to work it would take two judges and two different scorecards. One, a following judge that was unbiased in the dogs in the cast, the second would b a hunting judge who with the help of the other trialers scored lines. I know I've left a lot of details out and it probably has holes in it but I think this would result in a rabbit dog! I wouldn't minus for reaching or swinging(even though I like a good line running dog), but if they are gettin it done applaud them. I would minus for non produces. Soo....in the end u'd have hunt counting, which I believe akc leaves out....drive scored as lines but the judge wouldn't now how to handle whip everyone else as ukc hb is accused of because of the other judge.....count quick checks which I think little pk doesn't put enough importance in.....and let a dog that can drive and leave a pk behind that is often frowned upon in nkc pp a lot of times regions tend to differ) because they get out of a check too quickly.

I prefer the Little Pack format, but I really think it would improve the dogs if scored checks were 10 seconds instead of 15. So often, the dog that controls the race gets a lot of the shorter checks. Rewarding this dog would clean up some of the rougher dogs in LP and score the hounds that are running the most rabbit.

I would also scratch dogs after 2 minuses. When ARHA started, casts were 2 hours, and then moved to 1 1/2 hours. Now they are only an hour, but dogs still have to get 3 minuses to be minused out. I just don't get why the running time has been cut in half, but the number of minuses has not been changed. This just allows faulty dogs to win. I hate mouthy dogs, and I just can't see how anyone could argue against getting them out of casts so truer mouth hounds would win.

If the goal is to better the breed, getting rid of mouthy dogs and rewarding closer dogs by scoring a shorter check time would do this.

That's a great response. I would love to see that. The only problem I see with that is it will be hard for judges to keep up with the hounds to score 10 second checks. Most of my trialing takes place in" north carolina, and most places are thick cutovers, and Virginia, and those mountains surely put a whipping on me. With that said I wish it was like the way jcm described.

JCM I agree on both parts of your post. Pete what I don't understand about yours is the dogs are going to run the same amount of time in 1 hr if there is 10 second checks or 15 second checks. I know some judges have a hard time getting on the dogs to score them even at 15 second checks and they actually don't know when the check was really started. It's awful hard if you can't get there most guys go from the time the dogs all shut up but that isn't always right either. I don't know of any foolproof system. This is one of the things I like about AKC judging, if they see a dog make a clean check after a loss they score him no matter what the time. The best check dogs I have ever seen do some quick work in the check area and should be rewarded for it.

so far so good. lots of good ideas we would like to start a format that gets the beagle back to what a beagle was breed for to hunt and drive a rabbit. give us all your ideas and this spring we plan on having a fun hunt to see how it works, remember the word "fun" hunt. Also do you like the ribbons and trophies or would you like to get some of your money back or would the money take the fun out of it?

handskennels wrote:we would like to start a format that gets the beagle back to what a beagle was breed for to hunt and drive a rabbit.

REALLY?

My hounds Will hunt their own rabbit and they Will drive a rabbit either to a hole or a kill. They know where the end of the line is, and work a check from the point of loss. They don't have to have the front, but will take it when it's there. They run the line no matter if they are in the front or the back, If scenting is head high, they'll run like the wind, if scenting is poor, they better have the gears to walk it out......ARHA Progressive Pack fits them just fine. I really don't see where Progressive Pack has any holes in their scoring procedures. If AKC had a format to fit what the "MAJORITY" of the dogs running in the PP of today..I'd be there. JUDGING is the #1 problem with NKC hunts! Too many inexperienced people out there judging.

Create an AKC format that runs under PP scoring procedures. Two well paid judges for the entire day. Eliminate time limit. Eliminate hunting and handling.

Just my opinion......
Lance McCarthy

okay lance I like what you are saying now tell me this how about if we have two judges one to run with the dog and score checks and jumps and one with the handlers kind alike ukc that judges the strikes and lines each judge having there own score card that is added up at the truck in front of the cast do you think this would get rid of the "pencil whipping" they have in ukc also what is the right number of dogs for a cast 4 like ukc 5 like little pack or 6 like progressive or would it be better not to limit the number of dogs in a cast just break it up into how many judges you have and get all the opens out in one round. thanks for everyones input

Hands if you go to some of the SPO trials in the Northeast I think you will find they run the format you are talking about.

I would like to address the concern about 3 minuses being too much before a dog is picked up. I also hate mouthy dogs. That being said, what I have observed is that a lot of the minuses are casused because soon after a dog is struck and put on the clock some mouthy dog takes off barking for every breath and the whole pack leaves the strike area. The struck dog is still on the clock and ends up taking a minus. I don't know how the rules are supposed to deal with this but I have not seen aqny one trying deal with it. The MOUTHY DOG TAKES NO MINUS. Bobby

bobby ran spo got sent to the truck when the other dogs struck a rabbit babe cut through them like hot butter and was told he was running to much rabbit not sure what that means but still had a great time real good guys. I also don't understand how spo has so many different formats they say you run up north this type of dog will win go down south this other type of dog will win and so on don't they all work off the same rule book. On the minus question I agree guess you should stop the clock on the strike dog put the dog pulling on the clock let it use up its three min. then bring the dogs back to the original spot leash the minus dog give the strike dog the rest of it's time then minus it if it does not produce or if it does turn all dogs in with it.

in the NKC little pack format a dog can be given a minus by the judge for pulling the hounds out of the strike or check areas

No minus in ARHA Not out of the Strike area.
Only out of the check area would you minus a dog for pulling.