The American Beagler Forum

I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ARHA TRIALS,COULD ANYONE TELL ME THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LP AND PP? THANKS

pp has check areas and little pack don't
pp tighter on the line

foxxy wrote:pp has check areas and little pack don't
pp tighter on the line

sorry,i have to agree to dissagree...................

lp has a check area,of course,every judge has a different size check area then the next,cause from time to time,there is a minuss or two put on a dog or two for pullin dogs out of the "check''' area,not nearly as ofter though as there should be though in my opinion and as for runnin a line,most lp dogs that have a lot of success in trials dont run lines,they run the pack and swarp in on the checks and score......................

so,basically,yeah,you was right foxxy..............

danny vansickle wrote:

foxxy wrote:pp has check areas and little pack don't
pp tighter on the line

sorry,i have to agree to dissagree...................

lp has a check area,of course,every judge has a different size check area then the next,cause from time to time,there is a minuss or two put on a dog or two for pullin dogs out of the "check''' area,not nearly as ofter though as there should be though in my opinion and as for runnin a line,most lp dogs that have a lot of success in trials dont run lines,they run the pack and swarp in on the checks and score......................

so,basically,yeah,you was right foxxy..............

yeah good thing you cleared that up

danny vansickle wrote:

foxxy wrote:pp has check areas and little pack don't
pp tighter on the line

sorry,i have to agree to dissagree...................

lp has a check area,of course,every judge has a different size check area then the next,cause from time to time,there is a minuss or two put on a dog or two for pullin dogs out of the "check''' area,not nearly as ofter though as there should be though in my opinion and as for runnin a line,most lp dogs that have a lot of success in trials dont run lines,they run the pack and swarp in on the checks and score......................

so,basically,yeah,you was right foxxy..............

thanks danny
can i ask what the check should
this is the only thing that i dont like about lp (no) check area
thanks again

I'm no expert of either, although I have run WAY more little pack than progressive pack. Here are a few differences that I have noticed while running progressive pack: NO SWINGERS!!!! PP likes the check area to be worked like a rippling effect from a stone being dropped in water. A check is not a 15 second breakdown, but rather a correction in forward progress. PP will minus for a dog passing other dogs to advance to the front of the pack. PP can run 6 dogs per cast. PP has to "certify" as champ or grand, this involves solo work where a gun is fired, and a dog has to prove that it can circle a rabbit on its own (I like this idea!!). I hope I wasn't too far off, I'm sure a Progressive Packer would be able to do a better job differentiating the rules than I did. The only PP club that I have been to is in Ashland, Ohio, and they put on a great hunt and they always welcome newcomers, but, I will tell you this: there is a difference between LP and PP, so don't be upset if you take your swinging dog and get minused out.

PP is a slower dog with a shorter check. Much smoother run.

To do good in LP you need a dog that can't run a rabbit for long without making a 15 second check or longer.

If your dog can run a rabbit with few short checks, you will not win.

You hope one or more of the 3 dogs you draw out with has a great mouth to create 15 second checks by lying, false barking, pulling way off the track, etc. so your dog can pick up the 15 second checks and get the check points.

If you have a smart, brainey dog that can mess up a pack in one of many ways and cause them to lose the rabbit for 15 seconds or longer and then go back to where it knows the track is and pick it up continually,
you will have a sure trophy winner. A few judges will figure out what it is doing, but, most won't.

Errors are a plus in LP and a smooth, fast, running pack with seldom checks, the kind anyone would like to hunt with will not make second series due to not having any points. You could win the bench though.

Guess you dont like LP? Why do people feel the need to come on here and bad mouth a format or a formats dogs just because they have a different opinion. I would say the majority of dogs that win with consistency in LP, are not as you describe in your rant. Alot of times the dogs come back with less than 100 points, so how many times did they create a check? In my opinion, without bad-mouthing the PP format, they need to atleast have a 5 second check. I do like the certifying part, but believe me, I like rabbit hunting just fine with my LP dogs. Never had a problem getting a rabbit back to the gun.

Todd i will take Check points for $50 .....4 checks = 100 points

Right from the ARHA site

Little Pack is the most popular division in ARHA. This type of competition is run in 5-dog casts and tends to favor fast dogs with a tendency to work a wide check area. The dogs are scored on finding and running a rabbit, with individual accomplishment being a more important factor than close pack work.


Progressive Pack competition runs a 6-dog cast, generally of medium speed hounds. In addition to being scored for finding and running a rabbit, the hounds also have points subtracted from their scores for infractions involving their work in the pack and in the check areas.


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My dogs run more of a PP style
but i run them in more LP trials becauls there are more of them close to me. and i have made friends that run LP.
bonnie runs close to a 7 on speed on a good senting day. so to say all PP dogs are slow, thats not so.
Go run with Carls WHO dog down at coon island. he gets alot of smiles cuz he's a little fart . but let me tell ya ,that little dog can bring it on. i seen that at the PP state hunt. they just dont get by with cutting or swinging in PP like SOME of the LP dogs do.
the only thing i dont like about PP is they dont tell the score till the end of the hunt. as where LP they tell you after each rabbit.
if you have a good check dog thats compettive and that will fight for the front you would do well in LP.
or one thats fast and can swing wide and get the check you could do well.
we like to go for the fellowship with other beaglers. and to see how differnt lines run.
you can see fast dogs with good line controle in LP .
you will also see cutting, slashing, skirtting in LP
i even seen one run off an did't come back. ever

AND say your dog jumps the rabbit runs it perfict not one check you will win , becauls no one else got a check or a jump or nothing. your the only one with points..
i'm going to bed now.

maplehill wrote:Guess you dont like LP? Why do people feel the need to come on here and bad mouth a format or a formats dogs just because they have a different opinion. I would say the majority of dogs that win with consistency in LP, are not as you describe in your rant. Alot of times the dogs come back with less than 100 points, so how many times did they create a check? In my opinion, without bad-mouthing the PP format, they need to atleast have a 5 second check. I do like the certifying part, but believe me, I like rabbit hunting just fine with my LP dogs. Never had a problem getting a rabbit back to the gun.

Very good post, mapelhill. I agree with you. All my lp hounds can bring a rabbit back to the gun just as good as any pp or AKC FC. Were I trial at, I have seen some very clean hounds win quite often.
Boys, a rabbit dog is a rabbit dog. I personally like a hound that can bring a rabbit around at blazing speed so that rabbit can be harvested and move on to the next one. Show me where a rabbit hound is not suppose to have break downs or run a certain way. What it boils down to ........is what YOU like. JMO

hounddog
Jim Umbarger

I told the truth and answered the mans question as best I know how. Some folks just don't want to admit it!!!

Are there good dogs in LP, sure.

I bred to a Grand Champion Skyview Cliff after I hunted with him and watched him close. Great dog in my opinion. Another oneI hunted with many times was Mac Black, a real rabbit dog, no quit in him, who is a Grand also.
Several others too. All were, are, great check getters, hard hunters, and run to catch, but, even they need some dog in the cast to create the long 15 second checks and the more the better.

You MUST admit to be honest that in LP the more checks in the cast of 15 second duration the better your odds of your dog picking them up and getting the winning points. Look at the points accumulated at the nationals in the final casts, how many 15 second checks does that total up to after maybe 30 minutes of hunting for rabbits, and running 30 minutes, is that called good running? It's good FIELD TRIAL RUNNING.

Sure there are exceptions. I've even seen a trial where no dog jumped a rabbit and the winner was picked in each cast by how hard it hunted for the rabbit. That is not a good trial to me nor was it to anyone there.

I've also had my dog run the whole time way ahead of the cast and never have a 15 second check. No points! This dog would do much better in PP where the checks arte shorter, isn't that true!

Didn't make second series many times because sadly there was no dog creating checks in the cast, all ran with too short of checks, not any of 15 seconds ,so, none for my dog or their dogs to pick up. How we all wished someone would of brought a 15 second check creater as we drove a long way.

You know and I know many times the best rabbit dogs there go home early because it and its cast members ran too flawless.

The visiting and looking at the dogs, going out on others casts to see and hear the music,
all are a great time and makes for good friendships but, what I said is still true. A lot of 15 second checks is not good running.

The 15 second check rule needs to go in my humble opinion.

I agree with your post this time more than the last. Just seemed like in the first post you were saying LP dogs didnt know how to run a rabbit, maybe I misunderstood. I to believe the 15 second check is too long, should be 10 in my opinion.

Todd if there is a game to be played, there are those that will know how to play the game.

I know dogs that are jealous to a fault and will lie and pull dogs off the track (They all have good mouths) and then when all the dogs are way off the track for 15 seconds or longer, sneak back and recover it and run til the others catch up and do it again. They win consistently in LP. Sure are check creators and point getters. We do not let them take them rabbit hunting with us, they are trial dogs. We laugh because they DO IT ALL!

At a LP trial, I enjoy going out to the cast poles and seeing whose dog is running with whose. many times the word will get out that Bobby's ol dog Katie is running with Jacks ol dog Rowdy and so on, for the dogs in the cast. Many I have hunted with as others have, but, have never seen them run against each other so when their cast goes out, a stream of trucks follow to see this cast run. You'll see me and others trying to get someone to handle our dog for us so we can go watch. Most times we are not disappointed and its something to see and hear. No points gotten, but great running and afterwards all are smiling and shaking hands and say, " Well, no points, but it was worth it to hear that bunch run together". Many times caught 3 or more rabbits, ran them down.

I prefer dogs in second paragraph.

i appreciate all the info.hope to hear from more.

I just love the fellowship at trials but love to rabbit hunt too.But in rabbit hunting there something eles than just running a rabbit.I know in my trials and the other licn trials we all are in a hurry.That the reason we help jump a rabbit or go were there lots of rabbits were its easy to get one up.But we are not in a hurry to buy a dog why be in a hurry to see what is the best at a trial.I take a gun with me when I rabbit hunt not a tally ho stick.I think all trials should have a gun in it.Shoot the rabbit.Now lets see what that dog can do now.That dog looking another rabbit but maybe can t run one that great and deer broke is your rabbit dog unless you hunt all the time were there lots of rabbits.I mean to me a RABBIT DOG show you a rabbit, not you have to show them one I don t care how good they can run him.Not saying all trial dogs are like this but they are a lot out there and you trial guys know it too.You know just like I do there are some FC dogs out there that can run the crap out of a rabbit but you have to show them a rabbit first.