The American Beagler Forum

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:53 am**

ok guys here is what happened,now,you make the call on what you would have done with the 3rd dog..............

5 dog open class,runnin near a lake with a dam,dogs are poundin a rabbit back and forth along side the lake,my dog is blue,he is winnin the cast woth 7 or 8 checks to 5 over the 0range dog,with 10 minutes left to go,suddenly my dog,blue and the green dog top the dam and are headin up the hill on a deer,we never saw the deer,but there was tracks,whatever it was it was wrong.

well,orange is headin for the other two when the judge yells to handle the dogs.the handlers of green and orange take off for the hills to get them,over the dam and up the first hill,meanwhile,the other two hounds are sittin by the handlers feet,they would not run it..

18 minutes later,the handler of orange is comin back with the dog

the judge lets orange cotinue and it wins the cast and placed top 10 in thehunt.

so,did the judge make the right call or not

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:09 am**

Did the Orange Dog OPEN on it???????

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:21 am**

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:38 am**

Orange doesn't have to open on it, trust me. I have a male that got scratched twice and never barked. All the dog has to do is go with them, if the dog doesn't turn it down and keeps running witht the others dogs very far at all, he is scratched. I dont kow this situation though, just mine. And my dog deserved to be picked up both times, and he was back in less than a few minutes.

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:02 am**

I guess this is one of those situations were if you saw it happen it would be easier to make a call on. I have 1 question. how long or far did the judge let your dog and the green run the off game untill he told you to handel. the orange is allowed to go and check the other hounds without getting scratched as long as he turns it down when he gets their. although it sounds like he may have ran it too.

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:38 am**

If the dog didn't return to rabbit hunting immediately, it should have been scratched.
Did the dog pull in, check the line, and then go back to its own thing?

I have seen dogs refuse a trash chase, and just go back to hunting and this same discussion came up.
The dog harked in, checked the line, and went back to hunting.
The judge explained that the dog was not in the chase and would not be scratched.

G. Reasons a Hound Must Be Disqualified
3. If the hound runs major off game. The judge does not have to see the off game to
disqualify the hound. A hound shall be barred from all competitions in ARHA
licensed hunts for one year if he/she runs off game 3 times in a calendar year. It is
not the intention of this rule to penalize the hound that is merely harking in
on another hound, smells around, and then immediately returns to rabbit
hunting. If the hounds are running off game, the judge can stop the chase at any
time but can take at least 10 minutes before he/she disqualifies any hound.
When there is a question as to whether the hounds are running off-game or not,
the handler cannot scratch his/her hound to prevent the judge from disqualifying
his/her hound and turning it in for running off game. If the handler scratches
his/her hound under these circumstances, the hound will be turned in for running
off game. Major off game is described as deer, fox, coyote, elk, moose, antelope,
wolf, bobcat, cougar, bear, wild hogs, wild goats and wild sheep.

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:03 am**

I talked to one of the guys in the cast and he said that the dog in question checked the dogs running trash came back and then went and checked them again, but never went with them or opened. I wasn't there, but I would say according to that the dog didn't run the deer. Some dogs that are deer broke with a shock collar will come back to the owner, others will just go on about there business hunting which they shouldn't be penalized for.

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:24 am**

Big Dog wrote:I talked to one of the guys in the cast and he said that the dog in question checked the dogs running trash came back and then went and checked them again, but never went with them or opened. I wasn't there, but I would say according to that the dog didn't run the deer. Some dogs that are deer broke with a shock collar will come back to the owner, others will just go on about there business hunting which they shouldn't be penalized for.

Danny if this is the case I would say the judge did the right thing but as I said before you would probally just have to see it happen to make an accurate call since your story is different than the other guy in your cast.

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:00 am**

Danny,
I like the fact that you bring these little stories back to the board. It gives everyone a lot of insight on how things can happen and then on the flip side you get a chance to look at what types of things these judges are looking at. I think you are doing a good job by keeping your opinion out of the question and just letting everyone explain the rules. Everyone understands that there is always two sides to every call, but having one side to discuss at least gives everyone a chance to learn something no matter who the call was in favor for, or against.

You will not change the results by discussing it after the fact, but the simple fact that we all can talk about scenarios now will only make everyone more aware of what is expected, and what the current rules are.

Steve

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:27 am**

I agree about the scenarios.
It allows all those involved a chance to review the rules, and think about different situations.
I usually review the rule before I respond just to make sure that I understand.

Here is a link to the ARHA LP rules.
I suggest all those interested to book mark it for future reference.

http://www.arha.com/littlepack/LP%20RULES%202007.pdf

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:46 am**

danny vansickle wrote:ok guys here is what happened,now,you make the call on what you would have done with the 3rd dog..............

5 dog open class,runnin near a lake with a dam,dogs are poundin a rabbit back and forth along side the lake,my dog is blue,he is winnin the cast woth 7 or 8 checks to 5 over the 0range dog,with 10 minutes left to go,suddenly my dog,blue and the green dog top the dam and are headin up the hill on a deer,we never saw the deer,but there was tracks,whatever it was it was wrong.

well,orange is headin for the other two when the judge yells to handle the dogs.the handlers of green and orange take off for the hills to get them,over the dam and up the first hill,meanwhile,the other two hounds are sittin by the handlers feet,they would not run it..

18 minutes later,the handler of orange is comin back with the dog

the judge lets orange cotinue and it wins the cast and placed top 10 in thehunt.

Before i am reamed out. My answer is no. The call is the judges to make but i would wait a few minutes and see who has got the deer dogs. Maybe 18 mins is sorta long in my eyes but how long did it take the orange handler to get to the point the judge hollared? Deer dogs aint coming back quick but any dog with competion in there eyes will at least ck the pack.Then hopefully you can smile and say you own it. when it does come back.....Overall the call is the judges. JMHO ,I would of let it gone a little longer. Good question danny.

so,did the judge make the right call or not

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:25 am**

Big Dog wrote:I talked to one of the guys in the cast and he said that the dog in question checked the dogs running trash came back and then went and checked them again, but never went with them or opened. I wasn't there, but I would say according to that the dog didn't run the deer. Some dogs that are deer broke with a shock collar will come back to the owner, others will just go on about there business hunting which they shouldn't be penalized for.

big dog,the dog was gone man,all three left,gone,the owner of the 3rd dog and the 2nd ran behind them trying to call them off,finally,yes the 3rd dog came back,but,it took it 18 muntes to do it,obviously it went with them for a while,then turned it down,wheather it was barking or not i cannot truthfully say,it did not bark any up to the first hill,after that,we could barely hear,so,it may or may not have barked.and by the way,the 18 minute point was when the guy yelled and had her,as far as gettin back to the gallery,it was gone longer,but,he did recover her after 18 minutes.

i think it is a hard call to make,yes,it did come back,but where do ya draw the line as far as time,the guy that owned the second dog found him a few hours later,he was not running a deer when he found him,mine wasnt running it when i found him two days later,so,technically,if your goin to let a dog return and win the cast after 18 minutes,what can of worms will that open.

if a dog leaves on a deer at the start of a cast,then comes back after 59 minutes,is it still active?

let me tell ya what saved the dog,i was savin this for later,the judge called time out before the orange had a chance to get in with the two dogs,that was the judges reason for not scratching him,he obviously went with them for 18 minutes,but,because he said time out before the dog had a chance to reach the other two,it was allowed to return,now,the dog was only 50 yrds behind them and pulling when time was called.

i am not sayin the judge did anything to help the guy out,but,maybe that is how guys from that area judge,the judge and the 3rd owner where from pa.they have a lot of heavy terrain and deer,maybe up there they call it as soon as they are sure it is off game,but,i always give every dog a chance to check the track,after seein the 3rd dog top the hill 50 yrds behing and gaining,i would have given it maybe,maybe 10 minutes to come back.and that would have been generous.

i just figured it was a different situation,and threw it at ya to make the call,i aint bitchin at all,my dog was runnin trash,now,in my defense,i just bought this dog two weeks ago,normally i will never take a dog to a trial without testing it,the dog has turned them down before,but that day,he was lovin it,and i feel safe to say this,i got one of the best soundin deer hounds out there

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:38 am**

Same apples different tree. World hunt 2000, Cast of grands----Dan the crusher-swings behind the judges probaly 80 yards Jump Strike and 4 checks before any dog can cover him......Actually was pretty neat. Rabbit
holes up. Second rabbit dan jump strikes again gets couple of checks and something else checks.Then the check is down another cast of dogs is running within ear shot------Dan swings to pack b and runs probaly 25 mins before anyone realizes he aint in cast a. Judges scored points then pete ask if dan is in pack, no he is not. Judges call time out we go get dan 1/2 mile away. Gone for 30 mins . Run another rabbit dan wins the cast. The moral to the story.Judging brings all the new challenges to the table, if your gonna judge, gotta be able to make quick calls and stick to em. Everybody aint gonna like em but Using common sense should always prevail.I guess what i am trying to say is the judge probaly did the fairest thing that came to mind first.Which round was this danny? If the dog went on to place well thennnnnnnnnn must be pretty solid even though after reading ur story sounds a little ifffffffy to me but, same story in dans cast. They could of screwed him out of the win but chose to let the dog get his due.Calling timeout saves any judge from anything
at anytime.

. I reverse my decision based on my educated cleverness to re-read the post several times.

...Timeout boys

Ps danny field trials are not the place to deer break dogs,you know better than that shamy shamy.

Posted: **Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:02 pm**

Don't know what happened on this cast but I have had judges tell us before a cast '' If the dogs run off game you have 10 minutes to get them back'' ......lol. I have known dogs that would run a deer but if you got into shouting distance of the dog you could make it stop. Alot of judges will scratch a dog that goes to check the off game chase and not return to the handlers or judges, when the rule doesn't say anything about returning to anyone, only returning to hunting for rabbits. Some dogs that haven't been shocked of deer ( but won't run deer ) might return to hunting for a rabbit where ever they last checked the other dogs. I have had this happen to me and seen it more than once. The dogs will normally be out of town before I call an off game. The club I belong to has Swampers along with Cottontails so it's best to let the dogs show for sure.

Posted: **Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:12 am**

danny vansickle wrote: if a dog leaves on a deer at the start of a cast,then comes back after 59 minutes,is it still active?

The rules say immediately.
IMO immediately is go check the line the other dogs are running, refuse it and return to rabbit hunting.
The question is not how long it took the dog to come back, the question is "Was the dog rabbit hunting after he checked the line".
There is very little intrepation to this rule. Dog checks the line and returns to rabbit hunting, or he is in the chase.

The American Beagler Forum

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