The American Beagler Forum

i seen this happen at the lil world this year the judge had two dogs on the clock at the same time. the time went on for about 6or7 minutes finally the judge calls dead track and explains that while 1 dog is on the clock the 2nd dog gives 3 or 4 barks in another direction with 1minute to go on 1st dog so he waits for time to run out on 2nd dog and then gives minus to both dogs. All of the handlers do not sign score card and takes it back to moh. the moh takes minus away from dog 2 and says he dosent think it would changed outcome dog 1 won cast by 10 points im new at this but dosent the rule book say if there is a rule violation the cast should be run over

the cast should of been run over

Chimney Rock Kennel wrote:the cast should of been run over

the judge should of have his license revoked because it is clear he has no clue on how to judge

I was the MOH at the little world. This scenario was never brough to me as a protest. I did have one where 3 minutes ran out and the judge just moved them on his own(but 1 stayed back) with out telling the handlers. He put a second dog on the clock(the one that didn't move) and minused it w/o moving that hound. Either way, the outcome of the cast was not determined by that minus. I will rarely re-run a cast unless a major voilation that would have impacted the outcome of the cast. This was a new young judge, I then pulled him aside and discussed rules with him after every round for the rest of the day. I also tried to pair him up with guy that could help.. THE LAST thing we need to do in our oganization is to start pull or revoking licenses for the young guys that are trying to learn. We chase enough of them away with our Negative sportsmanship.

Blu Tick Beagler wrote: THE LAST thing we need to do in our oganization is to start pull or revoking licenses for the young guys that are trying to learn. We chase enough of them away with our Negative sportsmanship.

That's all fine...but a big hunt like that is NOT the place to learn!

Do you judge?
Every hunt I go to is short on judges.

How is the MOH supposed to know how much the experience a judge has?
The man was a licensed judge, just like the rest.

To all those that complain that don't judge, I offer this - Get off your lazy rear, pass your judge's test, and start judging.

Blu Tick Beagler wrote: THE LAST thing we need to do in our oganization is to start pull or revoking licenses for the young guys that are trying to learn. We chase enough of them away with our Negative sportsmanship.

You should know how to judge before you try to judge. I support all the young guys that want to judge but if he messed up on that what else did he mess up on that the handlers did not know about. The dog that should have won the lil'world hunt could've been in that cast and lost due to an inexperianced judge. I think you did the right thing by placing him with other judges but still believe the cast should of been re-run when you knew there was a rule violation and it was due to an inexperianced judge. A rule violation is a rule violation, major or minor.

WOW..........HOW DID THGUY EVEN GET A LISCENCE,YOU CANNOT HAVE TWO DOGS ON THE CLOCK AT THE SAME TIME,EVER


AS FAR AS REVOKING A LISCENCE,IF IT WAS A SEASONED JUDGE,I COULD SEE DOIN SOMETHIN CAUSE HE/SHE SHOULD KNOW BETTER,BUT I HAVE TO AGREE WITH PAUL,IT IS GETTIN HARD TO FIND PEOPLE TO JUDGE,IF ANYTHING,THE YOUNG INEXPERIENCED JUDGE SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN JUDGING ALONE,BUT,IN DEFENSE OF THE GENTLEMEN SIGNING UP JUDGES,IT WAS A NERVE RACKING WEEKEND,THE MOH WAS PROLLY UNAWARE THAT TH JUDGE WAS INEXPERIENCED,IF SOMEONE COMES UP AND SIGNS UP TO JUDGE,ALL THE MOH CAN DO IS TAKE HIM ON HIS WORD THAT HE KNOWS THE RULES AND IS EXPERIENCED.

AND RERUNNING A CAST AT THIS YEARS LIL WORLD WAS VERTUALY OUT OF THE QUESTION,PAUL DID GOOD TO GET IT DONE WHEN HE DID,MY HAT GOES OFF TO HIM.IF IT HAD NO AFFECT ON THE OUTCOME OF THE CAST,MOVE ON.

THE MOH CAN'T TAKE TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES TO QUIZ EACH JUDGE BETWEEN CASTS,BUT,THE YOUNG JUDGE SHOULD HAVE KNO0WN BETTER THEN TO TRY AND JUDGE ALONE,ESPECIALY AT A BIG 5 WITH SO MUCH AT STAKE.JMHO

SilverZuk wrote:Do you judge?
Every hunt I go to is short on judges.

How is the MOH supposed to know how much the experience a judge has?
The man was a licensed judge, just like the rest.

To all those that complain that don't judge, I offer this - Get off your lazy rear, pass your judge's test, and start judging.

Yeah...sure I judge.

Have you ever been to a big hunt????? I've never seen a shortage of judges at them....

I'm not saying it was the MOH fault. It's the ol' boys fault who doesn't really know the rules.. taking it upon himself to judge on his own. Too many judges pass the test that know as much about houndwork as I know about rocket science!

Lance wrote:
Yeah...sure I judge.

Have you ever been to a big hunt????? I've never seen a shortage of judges at them....

I'm not saying it was the MOH fault. It's the ol' boys fault who doesn't really know the rules.. taking it upon himself to judge on his own. Too many judges pass the test that know as much about houndwork as I know about rocket science!

All I can say is as a MOH I do everything I can to make the hunt move as smoothly as possible.. AND YES there is a major shortage of judges even at big hunts.. At the Little World hunt Bobbie and I scowered the club, the parking lot and even made calls on cell phones. Some people sign up thet you don't even know. They have a license, hear you up front begging people to sign up, so they try to help out. They may not be the best, but they try....Once I hear of an issue I try to pair them up with other judges I do know.. As a master of hounds of a big 5 I am not suppose to leave the club house. To help out I judged 8 rounds that weekend, with a pinched syatic nerve in my back. Sammy wells Judged all weekend with one eye, and Matt Elliot judged all weekend with pins in his ankle.. We are getting old folks.. All I am trying to say is we shouldn't be so hard on the young guys.. We should encourage and help the out any way we can.. Big hunt or small hunt...

Also, I said unless there is major violation that changes the outcome of a cast... I have done the big hunts for years, state hunts, and countless club hunts.. That I can think of I have re-ran about 4 casts total...Here's the rule.. says nothing about having to re-run a cast for any violation..

V. Scorecard and Protests
A. At end of the cast the judge shall total the scores and offer the scorecard to
the handlers for their signatures.
1. The handler may lodge a protest with the judge by not signing the scorecard.
2. When the handler signs the scorecard he forfeits his right to protest unless the
score or placements of hounds on the scorecard is changed after he/she signs it.
3. If a handler protests and does not sign the scorecard, the other handlers who agree
with the judge’s decision shall sign the scorecard.
4. If no protest is made by a handler to the Master of Hounds within 15 minutes
of returning to the clubhouse, all handlers must sign the scorecard or they
forfeit placement of their hounds in the cast.
5. All protests must be reported to the Master of Hounds by the protesting handler
within 15 minutes after returning to the clubhouse or staging area.
6. All protests shall be settled in a private conference involving the Master of
Hounds, the judge involved in the protest, and the handler who is bringing the
protest. The Master of Hounds may, if he/she chooses, question (in private) other
handlers or spectators who were present in the field for the cast being protested.
7. The Master of Hounds’ decision is final, with the exception of the appeal (protest)
to the Chairman of the Board within 30 days of the date of the hunt. If this is at
the World Hunt, then the individual has 30 minutes to file the written protest.

yes it was brought to moh the only one that signed scorecard was of course the winner but he agreed the cast should be run over i agree that at a big hunt you need to get thru as fast as you can but these people spent a lot of time and money not to get at least a fair shake if your not going to use the rule book theres no sense having one the judge was young and didnt know but when you take it back to the clubhouse and its obviously a rules violation you just got todo whats right according to the rule book not someones opinion

Paul did the right thing on this one. In this case the only issue was a second dog being put on the clock and taking a minus. No other rabbits were jumped during this timeframe so no other dogs were penalized. Take the minus away and move on. If there were other moving parts like a check going on or another dog not getting credit for a strike or a jump then it would be right to run the cast over, but in this case there were no other reported circumstances that would have changed the outcome of the hunt. No need to run that one over.

Big Dog

so lets get rid of the rule book so what big dogs saying is it doesnt matter if you spend a lot of money and time hoping to at least get a fair shot i have seen a lot of hunts won or lost in 2 or 3 minutes i didnt know anybody in this cast but everybody was talking about what a joke it was again that was clearly a rules violation and the good book says plainly that if it is a rule violation the cast must be run over not someones opinion that it probaly wouldnt have changed anything i bet if one of the big boys were in this cast it would have been run over

nky beagler wrote:clearly a rules violation and the good book says plainly that if it is a rule violation the cast must be run over

You will have to send me this set of rules, because the one I carry around plainly doesn't say this anywhere.. I posted the protest rules above. You can also read them here..
http://www.arha.com/littlepack/LP%20RULES%202007.pdf

I do hear this a lot... Mainly from folks that got beat and are looking for any reason to re-run the cast...As far as protests go... 90% are not protest to start with(he missed a check, my dog didn't run that deer,..etc)
9% are rules violations that can be corrected on the score card, or resolved with the handles and judge after the issues is discussed(sometimes a handler just trying to find a reason to re-run it) and about 1% of the casts are re-run because of a violation that impacted the outcome of the cast. Either way..there is always an appeal process.. pay the $50 and take it over the MOH to the watchdog comittee. The appeal process is there..

Paul you hit the nail on the head. Some people just never get out-dogged. They always got cheated or are looking for some technicality to get the cast re-run. In this particular instance I have seen no mention of another dog jumping a rabbit, Another dog getting a strike. The only mention was of a 2nd dog being put on the clock and taking a minus. If all dogs were out hunting during this time-frame and nothing happened then the only dog affected was the one that was unduly given a minus. Just take the 10 point minus away from that dog and all things should be square. If another dog had jumped or struck during this situation and not been credited for it then I agree run the cast over, but in this instance there was no penalty or disadvantage placed on the other hounds so there is no need to re-run the cast. How far you came and how much money you spent shouldn't play a role in this. If there were other rules violations then they should have protested, but if there were no other rules violations I think it would be riduculous to re-run the cast. Just my opinion. In my 5 or 6 years of trialing I have only seen blatant cheating about once or twice. Once at the world hunt and twice at the little world in different years. I only had a dog in two of these casts and I wouldn't have won either of the cast, but it was pretty obvious to everyone involved that the judge/judges had another agenda. A judge just missing some is not necessarily cheating, sometimes you just can't get it all. Here is an example of cheating. I saw at the little world. A dog opens up the handler says that is my dog, we are standing there looking at the dog when it barks. The judge isn't there on top of it. He comes up and the whole cast says that it is the green collar dog. The judge tells the cast he will not take any input from any handlers and he is putting the blue collar dog on the clock because he has run with him before and knows his voice, luckily a rabbit gets up and the blue collar dog gets a strike that he didn't deserve . 2nd instance same cast. Blue collar dog opens in a thicket, judge is on the other side of thicket, rabbit shoots out of the thicket and runs down a dirt road right by all of the handlers about a hundred yards. Dogs come onto the road and can't get it straight 3 minutes goes by. Judge says -10 on blue collar for not producing. We tell the judge that the rabbit just came out in front of the dogs and he says "I don't want to hear it" If I didn't see it then it wasn't produced. The owner of the dog in question was Mark Brown from KY, but someone else was handling the dog for him. It was obvious that the judge had an issue with Mark as he pointed out that he knew the dog and the dog would lie. 3rd instance in same cast green collar dog opens up, handler tells the group that is my dog. The blue collar dog is on the other side of the path. The judge says "Blue collar dog is on the clock" We tell the judge the blue collar dog is hunting here right in front of us, he says " I don't want to hear it, I know his mouth" rabbit is not produced and the blue collar pulls a second minus. That is cheating

Big Dog