capec bluewater rabbit trial

chapkosbeagles · Post by **chapkosbeagles** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:51 pm

i have just recently went to a akc field trial. i did not see the format to be that good. All I here is how akc permotes a better dog. My opeion is different. I would like to know why the handler has to jump the rabbit. If this format is so good why dont they permote a jump dog. dogs should get points or at least reconized in the judges eyes for a jumped rabbit. I ran three dogs to day in three seperate cast. I ran and stuck with the judges in every cast. I think that every dog should have the chance to score a rabbit. In the first cast that i was in. The dog hunted for a hour and 5 min. In the second cast i was in the dogs got an hour and a half to hunt,and in the third cast the dogs olny got 38min to hunt my ? is why. i think all dogs should have a min of at least an hour to show the judge what he has or dont have. In the third cast the judges dident even have any score and they said pick them up. In the 38 minutes that they hunted one or two of the dogs struck and ran maybe 30 yards and shut up.my understanding is that to score the pack all the dogs have to have a chance to strike in. they no longer said pick the dogs up and the pack got a race going 3 of the dogs were just stroking. We sure dident have enought score to score any dog after 15 seconds of running but they said that they made there decision. How could any judge judge a pack off 15 seconds of running, and not seeing no rabbit. In ukc that is a minus striking and not producing. when i said that the other dogs got longer to show there stuff, and how can you score thease dogs after a strike and not seeing a rabbit. They both said that they cold and hungry. Well i was cold and hungry too, but they still have a job to do. well i see regardless of the rules i can see that the judges make the rules and they say what goes. I think if thease small simple problems could be solved. That more people will bring there money to your clubs. I just think that the judges should come from out of state so that they are not judging their friends dog. if their is no limit on hunting time the judge can pick up the pack at any time he wants like what was done at the club today. If the judges have no one to answer to,and they no it they will continue to break the rules. Every dog should get a fair shot at showing the judge what he has or dont have. I never got picked up but my dog or anyone elses in the forth pack dident even have a chance to show their stuff. as far as akc permoteing a better dog i just cant see that. I am going to go take the class to be a judge and if i am judging their will be no favortism amoung judges. the best dog that day will recieve score off me regardless if you are a fellow judge or not. this formatt seams to have a lot of politices. they need to stay up on captial hill. this is a rabbit dog trial.

ackermanich · Post by **ackermanich** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:02 pm

I do agree that the dogs should have a set amount of time to run. You wouldn't buy a dog after watching him run ten minutes, so how could you judge him. I think some dogs do not get a chance. The last trial i was at my female struck a rabbit they ran half a circle, had two breakdowns (checks) and she was picked up for lack of score . We were on the ground for 15 min and 4 min of actually running time. I dont know how they could have scored anything in that amt. of time . I like akc format the problem is i think some of the judges go with the style they like instead of sticking to the format, or need to do a little more bunny hunting. I also would like to see them free-cast the dogs and let them hunt . I dont like everybody whistling and calling there dog over here and over there. I dont hunt my dogs like this , i want to turn them loose and encourage them to get out from under my feet. There are pros and cons to every format i think if you have a good honest and knowledgable judge akc is the way to go .

chapkosbeagles · Post by **chapkosbeagles** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:45 pm

well say ur running the type of dog that the judge likes. if they dont see no action how do they no if they like it or not. where i am trying to go with this is what can us the beagler do to change the holes in the format. like the running time of each dog. in my one cast i sware they dident even run a rabbit. some dogs ran a deer. mine came back to my leg the judge picked up most but that was the olny run in 38 min.on the other hand the one deer dog made it to the second series. i told the judge when my dog hit on a woodcock and now one else saw it, but in the back of my mind he dident deserve to win

wildhare2 · Post by **wildhare2** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:57 pm

The problem with a set time limit is the fact you have 2 judges trying to look at alot of dogs. You can't set a time limit because I have been on casts that they ran for 2 hrs and I have been on casts that they have run for 45 mins. If you can get a good rabbit or 2 then they will see what they need to. There is some luck involved in the 1st series. It is easy to say what you think you heard your dog do, but unless you are running behind the dogs you have no idea what has really happened. The problem with scoring jump is the fact the every dog can get lucky and jump one. They score dogs based on how they run the track. There are problem with all the formats, but it takes alot more to become FC versus a champ or grand in any other format. If you don't like SPO try going to large pack then all the dogs get the same time.

TC · Post by TC » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:53 pm

All i have t\o say on this is it is supposed to be Accomplishment over style!!!
But i see alot more STYLE getting put up than accomplishment!!!
AKC rules are just to GRAY its all in what the jude interprets the rule to be or HIS OPINION on what the rule book says..
you have to find a Judge that likes your STYLE of DOG then follow that judge around from trial to trial it Dont matter if you got a great jump Dog that will hunt his butt off that aint what most AKC judges are lookin for...
just to much GRAY area for me...
I have seen more AKC field Ch that caint run thier own rabbit than any other Format the AKC CH dont mean squat to me unless i can watch that Dog JUMP and CIRCLE a rabbit...
the AKC UBGF and DSBGF in my opinion have forgot what a rabbit Dog is Supposed to be.
that being Said i have seen a lot more that i like from Mid west SPO style of Dogs than the other federations at least they will let em hunt and Run.

Put Down your tally ho stick Boys let um loose and lets go huntin!!!!!!!

kybriarbuster · Post by **kybriarbuster** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:25 pm

yeah, what tc said

also a little more what you ran and not who you are. sam

wildhare2 · Post by **wildhare2** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:29 pm

I should have made myself more clear. We run Midwest and those few other clubs that run that style of hound. Also we like to run large pack north and south. UKC favors a hound that doesn't hunt very hard, is tight mouthed, and fast when the rabbit is up and running IMO. I like arha, but you can have some ruff hounds there.

bill (flint river ) · Post by **bill (flint river )** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:03 pm

rain wasnt helping, i dont think the deer race in that cast help much either.
rabbit were sitting very tight if they were out any ways. cant blame the judges for asking for help. weather sucked and thos 2 judges were soaked.

bill (flint river ) · Post by **bill (flint river )** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:07 pm

tc your comment was a hole lot gray. spo dont want a hound standing around, u may need to attend a few more trial before u start making thos claims.

TC · Post by TC » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:23 pm

bill (flint river ) wrote:tc your comment was a hole lot gray. spo dont want a hound standing around, u may need to attend a few more trial before u start making thos claims.

Ok Bill HOW MANY???
lets see off the top of my head I have attended over 20 AKC trials including the AKC Nationals twice. judged a few Derbies (Enjoyed them)
I have only atttended One Midwest trial didnt Compete in it went to observe Liked what I saw for the most part.....helped start and organize the only SPO Club in the Northwest (CWBC)
I just have a real problem with the judges having the handlers jump a rabbit for the Dogs. and yes i have heard it all and understand about the time constraints Ect. BUT at the VERY least give the dogs 15 to 30 min to get one up, that would also give the judges Time to observe Who is huntin and Who aint. Dont ya think?
I have seen a few AKC Judges that Would really Work the Dogs And THAT I like!!! or tell the handlers to get em in there thats ok Also just Dont Go beatin the brush to get a rabbit up For the Dogs...
It has been my Observation also that a hound that ewill actually persue as if to catch is said to be to Wild or Rough for a lot of them!! And Dont ever let em Step off the line more than a few inches.
As I said these are just My opinions take em or leave em Run What ya like
But I will look at the Dog before I decide..And that AKC FC just Dont mean that much to me any more.......

bill (flint river ) · Post by **bill (flint river )** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:46 am

TC it was raining, not a sprinkle here or there but rain. i can tell u both judges hunt. and they wont put up with hounds standing around. he asked for our help to get more bodies in and try our best to get a rabbit up. only reason is the weather.

TC · Post by TC » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:27 am

No Problem Bill I have Seen that Done more than once and Dont have a problem with it on those occasions! I was not refering to this trial at all. I was just Talking about AKC trials in general And some of the things I dont like about the methods of judging the Dogs. I feel that when Done on a Consistant basis it is not in the best interest of beaglers

Jay Schrader · Post by **Jay Schrader** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:28 am

To chapkosbeagles:
Derek, We apreciate that you came and entered dogs but, I think you are way out of line here. The judges tried to give you an explanation but it was very obvious that you didn't want to hear it. I'm sorry that you feel like you didn't get a fair chance. Some of that is the fault of the pack that you were drawn out in. There is no controlloing that. Those judges went well beyond the call of duty. They had alot more patience with hounds standing around & running the trails than I would have especially when they repeated asked the handlers to keep the dogs working the brush. The idea is not for the handlers to jump the rabbit. If the dogs would stay in the brush & work there it would be fine for the handlers to walk the trails. But when the dogs want to run up & down the trails and stand around waiting for another dog to jump the rabbit the handlers have to try to get the dogs to do their job. I think you are missing the point. It was also unfortunate that for a while the rabbits just did not want to move. That happens sometimes in a hard rain. We went back over those same areas later and had good running. Also, you heard how smooth that winners pack ran. I think that those judges did an excellent job of sorting through all those dogs to get to the deserving ones at the end. I have no hard feelings against you but coming on the internet after you lose is chicken s#$t. It is and you know it. I'll see you on the 10th in Otisville and we can talk face to face. That's fine. I hold to what I said that David and Joe did an outstanding job.

TC · Post by TC » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:45 am

Ok Now the Story Comes out... heavy rains and Adverse Conditions Make runnin hard WE all know that....
just like out Huntin We will get the Dogs to hunt Certain Areas to try to get a rabbit up
If the Judges Were instructing the handlers to do So they were doin the right thing....And if the Dogs were just hangin at the handlers Feet then they needed Picked Up!
I would Give the handlers ample Chance to get thier hounds in the Brush But Enough is enough..
Still Dont like the Trials Where they walk in a Line accross the area tryin to Jump a rabbit though........
I would Instruct the handlers to Stay back I will call them if I need them...
Turn your Dogs loose and I will talk to the hounds....
If your Dog will not Come to my Urging I would Instruct you to hunt your Dog
after 30 min of this and the Dog still aint huntin
head to the Truck......
I Do like the AKC format Just have a hard time with Some Folks INTERPRETATION Of the Rules.........
Waht they need is Some CONSISTANCY Clear up a few of the Gray Areas.......

chapkosbeagles · Post by **chapkosbeagles** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:47 am

first of all i wont own a dog with out extream hunt