trials lets try this again

[Lance]

I feel they will always be outweighed by the judges you have to use to "just get the hunt done" because you can't be there all weekend.

AS SAD AS IT IS....THAT'S THE GODS HONEST TRUTH!!!

[JCM]

I have seen a lot more good judges wasted with poor hound performance, than I have good hounds wasted by poor judging. Compare the quality of all the hounds entered in a trial vs. the quality of the judges. The reason judging is so difficult is because of the number of faulty or poor quality hounds entered.

Time after time, you see hounds entered that shouldn't even be there.

Every week here comes Owner Joe with another $20 to spend on his entry, just to minus out again.
And, here comes Owner Sam bringing his 5 year old open dog that has been entered in 200 hunts and still can't get a win to champion out.
And here comes Owner Fred with his rough, swinging piece of crap that blows up every race.
And here comes New Guy Bill with his 9 month old pup that doesn't have a clue what hit him.

They draw in the same cast and then some poor guy nice enough to judge just to help the club has to go out and chase them around on a frosty morning. After the cast, all the handlers agree that this guy is a terrible judge.
Owner Joe says,"my dog was running the heck out of the rabbit and he wouldn't score him."
Owner Sam says, "I've run under him 10 times and he never lets me win."
Owner Fred says, "my dog was on the front the whole time and drove the rabbit and that judge wouldn't score him."
New Guy Bill says, "I wonder why my pup didn't even score?"

I know there are poor judges, but I think blaming poor judging is an excuse. If someone goes out, does their best, and gives their honest opinion, that is good enough. Some judges are going to be better than others, no matter what you do. If you want to improve trials, improve the format.

[toldyouso]

jcm we just talked about this the other day at a hunt two dogs scored and the others needed to put to rest. but if the other three dogs do not show up who do we beat up on. and to greg wells on all your akc rules that you quoted. i have been trialing and running dogs way before you got involved in trialing and let me explain something to you. when you have a dog that you call skirting the brush is that dog being penalized for being more intelligent then the other dogs. because if you and i are hunting and you jump on a brush pile i am not jumping on the brush pile too that would be stupid. so you are saying you would rather leave a dumb dog on the ground then a smart one. you work for a living and i own a business who is smarter and i could go on and on and on . bottom line who cares how the rabbit is circuled as long as it is done swift and dogs pursue to catch and dogs can not do this if they are always looking down. i have seen some of your final 7 dogs winning packs and alot of the time the dogs that make it back have little to no score and the dogs with alot of score but make a few mistakes do not make it back. dogs that run the front off the tailgate tend to make mistakes the are running the rabbit not laying back in the opack waiting for the other dogs to mess up. this to me is like fighting someone and thinking that after your buddy kicks this guys butt youthen walk over and kick him in the teeth and claim victory. wow are you for real and this is why akc only lands 50 big males in the day it was 100 not no more why

[old blood beagles]

jcm we just talked about this the other day at a hunt two dogs scored and the others needed to put to rest. but if the other three dogs do not show up who do we beat up on. and to greg wells on all your akc rules that you quoted. i have been trialing and running dogs way before you got involved in trialing and let me explain something to you. when you have a dog that you call skirting the brush is that dog being penalized for being more intelligent then the other dogs. because if you and i are hunting and you jump on a brush pile i am not jumping on the brush pile too that would be stupid. so you are saying you would rather leave a dumb dog on the ground then a smart one. you work for a living and i own a business who is smarter and i could go on and on and on . bottom line who cares how the rabbit is circuled as long as it is done swift and dogs pursue to catch and dogs can not do this if they are always looking down. i have seen some of your final 7 dogs winning packs and alot of the time the dogs that make it back have little to no score and the dogs with alot of score but make a few mistakes do not make it back. dogs that run the front off the tailgate tend to make mistakes the are running the rabbit not laying back in the opack waiting for the other dogs to mess up. this to me is like fighting someone and thinking that after your buddy kicks this guys butt youthen walk over and kick him in the teeth and claim victory. wow are you for real and this is why akc only lands 50 big males in the day it was 100 not no more why

I have a problem with this statement. First off if you dont have a dog that will go into that brush pile, you might as well stay at home. If that dog waits for another to jump a rabbit and all it does is sit around waiting for a sight chase? Come on! If your hound is not hunting then it should not have been there. Second, sometimes the front running hound (just because of speed) is not the best hound out there, the hound that hunts, jumps, runs the line, claims the check and takes the rabbit on is the best at that time. Third, your hound that has the high scores and some mistakes; do you think that the only reason that he has high scores is because he is making the mistakes to create the scores? Fourth, one of the reasons that I see in the drop of numbers in AKC is because if you bring a sorry hound to a trial, it will not place and or even come close to a win and it is very tough to get a title. How hard is it in other formats? Give me a win and some points? Luck of the draw? Only one hound goes on, no matter hound good the other hounds are?

Using your words "bottom line" I care about how a rabbit is hunted, jumped, circuled, worked in a check area and with line control, and that is the reason the I run in AKC Mid-West.

[Lance]

when you have a dog that you call skirting the brush is that dog being penalized for being more intelligent then the other dogs

Is he more intelligent....or does he not have the guts to run the line through the brush...maybe he skirts the brush just to get to the front...better known as a cheater?

Toldyouso....I don't care how long you have been trialing and running dogs....That statement is CRAP!

[mybeagles]

JCM,

I have to agree with you on that post. Faulty entries far outweigh faulty judges. I judge as often as I can, and on several occations remember thinking, "what on earth did this guy enter this dog for?".

AKC changed the rules to require a dog to be 6 months of age to run in a licensed trial. Can anyone argue that it shouldnt have been changed to 18 months old. Very very few dogs at 18 months can handle it, but less than a year is rediculous.

IMO way too much emphasis is placed on finishing a dog before it turns 2 years old. The SPO Nationals was won by a 13" dog 12 months old that already finished as a Field Champion.

Mybeagles

[Greg Wells]

Try to look at it this way; When you solo your dog, how do you want it to run? I like to see them run the line as fast as possible without too many breakdowns & gaps left out of the line. When they lose it, I like them to snap back to the last point that they had the track & work quickly & quietly until they find it. When they open, I want them to be able drive it out fast and accuratly. I also like a hound to really give a lot of mouth when they are driving the line.
You wouldn't have much luck soloing a hound that stood outside the thicket because there wouldn't be anything to run the rabbit. Different problems will occur with the other faults that I mentioned also. I like hounds that don't change thier style when pressured by packmates. I want them competitive, but I prefer an honest line running pack; I think they will get more accomplished & less likely to lose the rabbit.
Also remember, I said every hound is going to make a mistake now & then, but it's the hounds that repeat the same fault over & over to the point that it is hindering the progress of the pack that need eliminated. If you jump the gun & start picking up every dog that makes one mistake, you will soon find yourself with a pack that doesn't do anything wrong, but they can't circle the rabbit either. I don't consider myself an AKC man that carries a rule book around; I'm just a beagler that thinks there is a proper way for hounds to run a rabbit & whoever wrote the AKC rulebook had the same general view as I do.

[THALL]

I think AKC SPO is the best format for the type of dog I like. I like it because a judge can minus a dog for any fault and reward the dog for any action of merit. I think ARHA has a great idea, but needs to find a way to reward a dog for running a rabbit, not merely picking up strikes, jumps, and checks.

[toldyouso]

lets try this again because once again you only read what you want to. i never said anything about a hound not going in the brush. my hounds will go in the brush and the can solo the hair off of mister rabbit and the age of a hound was not ever brought up. your rule book states and yes i am an akc midwest judge and was told by your vice president or sec or what every mark brown is to midwest when myself and my wife judge at jackson that we choose the wrong dog and we would never judge again whats that all about. skirting cheating what every you what to call it it is a style of running not a demerit remember your rule book states and i quote accomplishment over stlye. the brush thing let me clarify if you have a winners pack and the first three dogs to the brush pile go into the briar patch and the next two dogs skirt to the other side and grab the rabbit and go with it are you saying them dogs are cheating or maybe they are just to smart for the format you gentlemen choose to run.i do agree if the rabbit goes through the briar patch and your dog is the first one there it should go through the patch. now if your dog is always the last one there it should be gone. i agree 100 percent just because your dog is on the front does not mean its doing all the work and yes they probley will make more mistakes but lets be real they are running the rabbit what are the other dogs more likely barking at the front running dog excitement because it is not the rabbit. if my dog over runs a track and flys off the cliff and your dog follows who is the dumb dog. because if you go to rob a bank and i go with you am i going to jail to. i love a dog that can lock up the breaks and turn on a dime but anyone who as done this for any period of time knows them dogs are far and in between. would love to run dogs with you guys for 8 hours straight and see what we got do not need a trial to sort this out. call 6146336298 name is frank miller. leave in area of big running and have all the time in the world and if your dogs are all that i will buy them but i doubt it.ball is in your court jcm greg wells and anyone else whos up for the challenge lets make a day of it hell i will even buy the beer.

[houndsmen06]

let us know when its goin down... i'm sellin tickets

[Greg Wells]

Frank, people just have different opinions about what style of hounds will accomplish more consistent results. There is no need to get angry at someone because they like a different style of hound. I want the hounds to run the line & work the check close to the point of loss. I will never change my opinion on this subject. We can go on & on, but the bottom line concerning field trialing is that judges should go by the rules of the format they are judging whether it be AKC or ARHA.

[old blood beagles]

lets try this again because once again you only read what you want to. i never said anything about a hound not going in the brush. my hounds will go in the brush and the can solo the hair off of mister rabbit and the age of a hound was not ever brought up. your rule book states and yes i am an akc midwest judge and was told by your vice president or sec or what every mark brown is to midwest when myself and my wife judge at jackson that we choose the wrong dog and we would never judge again whats that all about. skirting cheating what every you what to call it it is a style of running not a demerit remember your rule book states and i quote accomplishment over stlye. the brush thing let me clarify if you have a winners pack and the first three dogs to the brush pile go into the briar patch and the next two dogs skirt to the other side and grab the rabbit and go with it are you saying them dogs are cheating or maybe they are just to smart for the format you gentlemen choose to run.i do agree if the rabbit goes through the briar patch and your dog is the first one there it should go through the patch. now if your dog is always the last one there it should be gone. i agree 100 percent just because your dog is on the front does not mean its doing all the work and yes they probley will make more mistakes but lets be real they are running the rabbit what are the other dogs more likely barking at the front running dog excitement because it is not the rabbit. if my dog over runs a track and flys off the cliff and your dog follows who is the dumb dog. because if you go to rob a bank and i go with you am i going to jail to. i love a dog that can lock up the breaks and turn on a dime but anyone who as done this for any period of time knows them dogs are far and in between. would love to run dogs with you guys for 8 hours straight and see what we got do not need a trial to sort this out. call 6146336298 name is frank miller. leave in area of big running and have all the time in the world and if your dogs are all that i will buy them but i doubt it.ball is in your court jcm greg wells and anyone else whos up for the challenge lets make a day of it hell i will even buy the beer.

5-C Definitions----------Faulty Actions Page 30,31,32

Skirting is purposely leaving the trail in an attempt to gain a lead or avoid hazardous cover or hard work. It is cutting out and around true trailing mates in an attempt to intercept the trail ahead. Page 30

5-E Demerits (2)
Faults are undesirable traits indicating the lack of sound quality, and shall be penalized in proportion to the degree of commitment, the frequency of repetition, and the distractions they afford running mates, as well as for the interruptions or lack of progress they cause during the performance. Quitting, backtracking, ghost trailing and running mute are the more serious faults. Pottering, swinging, skirting, babbling, leaving checks, racing, running in hit-or-miss fashion, tightness of the mouth and lack of desire or ability to find and move game shall be considered demerits. Page 31 and 32

Skirting is not a style it is a demerit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beagle Field Trial Rules March 2007 Published by the American Kennel Club, just in case you need to look it up.

I think this just described your hound on the outside of the briar patch. He is cheating and should have a demerit placed on him. If he kept this up in the pack time after time, he needs to be picked up. Who cares how fast your hound is if it skirts off the trail of the rabbit and lets the real hounds do the grunt work.

My name is Duane Bowling and you can come run with my pot lickers anytime. Keep your beer and bring some whiskey. LOL They are not the best but they can run with the best on any given day.

[Ridge View]

No Offense Mr. Miller, however I believe your statements made in your last post are CLEARLY why you will probably not be judging in the Mid-West again. How any judge from the Mid-West could say skirting is a style and not a demerit is beyond my understanding. Wow! I'm still perplexed!?

[toldyouso]

will you are probley right thats why i do not run the midwest trials no more but i can tell you this i gurantee that i am one of the best judges and most honest judge you will ever see or meet. and if you are so blind to see how dogs are placed in your trials let me point something out to you. mark brown from ohio myself brian garmatter earl rice doug bice roger bibler tony eyer were all sitting around one night in kentucky and mark brown points out look at the people who win and place in akc if this guy judges little bitchs and then runs little males he will place a hound 90 percent of the time if the other guyruns little bitches but judges little males he to will place a hound. this is true more times then not why?? so shawn fetty and brandy hill says will i guess i am going to have to become a judge the rest is history. explain that????? do you think denny dugan is a good judge unless he is judging a brace hound there is no way he could keep up with the dogs. and are you telling me that people do not follow certain judges????? and are telling me the rules are not differnt for certain people????? i had tony eyer tell me he does need a rule book so are you telling me it it my total opinion and not by a set of rules. look i really could care less what you run akc arha ukc pkc what style of dogs as long as your a hounds men. i would just like to run with you guys that talk lets just run. if you do not what to come to my area i will come to yours. always looking to see what everyone else has got but i do beleive that are hunting dogs are a thing of the past because is not the bottom line bring rabbit back to gun and who cares how that is done if that was your only way of feeding your family. promoting a hunting beagle. do you bred to better your pack your or hound. and everyone is always so concerned about solo who really every solos their dogs come on. so give me a jump dog a track dog a check dog give speed and no trash and it can be in four dogs doesnt have to be in one and i will give you a winners pack. because for the most part all that usually does not excist in one hound. look at your pack and you will see this is true. i am done here my work as been completed goodluck in your world of make believe. oh yea the best jump dog you guys got is the tally ho stick. or don hoag.

[THALL]

Maybe you need to think Just a little. I would think a good judge probably packs a good hound. I would not like to run under a judge that kept sorry dogs, but maybe that's just me.