Minus Points for Minor Off Game?

[Casey Harner]

I think why most are not replying is because it's pretty much black and white. There is a rule that states clearly what is to be treated as disqualifications. If they wanted to put house cats on that list along with lions tigers and any other feline that's fine but it doesn't so it is what it is. Heck I misused a dog out at a hunt for Not Producing because he barked on a turtle and if you think I'm kidding I had the handler come over and showed him. I know the opening post mentioned something about PP I know nothing about that format but I figure I could sit down and read there rule book and find some stuff I don't agree with in it to. The best thing to do is what ever format you are going to run read the rules and learn them whether you agree with them or not.By the way would anyone really consider a TURTLE off game?

Turtles are the worst....

No format is perfect, I agree with that though l am curious was this a young dog minus out?

[rabbitatfarm]

I can see the minus for opening on a turtle. I've had a young dog draw a minus for harking in on the way to a dog that barked twice. I've seen dogs get put on the clock for excitement barking when cut loose. Three barks is three barks. That part is pretty cut and dried. The day my dog chased the killdeer was near the end of the cast. No rabbits were found and I think he got bored. Score for the three-dog cast was -10, -10, (not producing) and 0. Tells you the kind of day it was.

[warddog]

I don't understand why folks that trial do NOT read the word of the rules. The rules are the law by which dogs are judged in a trail and if they specify something then that is exactly what is done and if they DO NOT specify something then one cannot read their opinion into it as the only determining factor is the WORD(s) as written. If I were to be the master of hounds and had to make a decision without being there and seeing the incident I would go strictly by the written word of the rule(s). There is absolutely no mention of small off game and from my experience in coon hound trialing the only thing they were actually concerned with was large, fast game. Interpreting the rule as written and the lack of specifying housecats, squirrels, turkeys, turtles or any other small game I would NOT try to add my opinion on what is considered off game or why the framers of the rules did not include these as off game but rather apply the rule(s) as written. If a dog opened on any of these so called minor off game species then they would fail to produce a rabbit and get minused but not disqualified. As others have stated it is what it is and that is how the framers of the rules made it so enforce the word of the rule(s) and don't try to read into it what suits your fancy. This is like all the controversy over the 15" rule as almost all registries that sanction trials have that rule and nothing is stated that anything over is acceptable. A bobcat is a bobcat and a housecat is a housecat two totally different species as is a polecat!

[BB Beagles]

I'll give you a good example and it's a true one too:
At a LP trial with about 10 min remaining, 1 dog strikes in, then 7 min remaining 1 more dog strikes in with it. Other 3 dogs remain in the woods. 1 min left, 1 other dog runs by the judge toward the deer running dogs but does not go to or with them. At end if the hunt, judge scratched all 3 dogs for running deer. The last dog did not bark or join in but yet scratched for running off game. Was it right, NO! The last dog got treated unfairly.

I've seen a lot of hounds get scratched by a deer chasing dog. If one or more is barking on track and pursue it like a rabbit, then they should be scratched. But after 10 min if a hound goes toward a barking dog, and makes no attempt to pursue is not a deer runner.

WARDOG is correct. In LP format we have set rules that we are SUPPOSE to go by. I've seen rules beat a good dog and save a mouthy one. But we have to go by the set rules. That's why we have them. Same goes for over 15" hounds.

Chimney Rock, i laughed when I read turtles. Lol! I had a beagle once, no matter where we were at, if he found a turtle he'd bring it back to me. Lol

[BB Beagles]

I'll give you a good example and it's a true one too:
At a LP trial with about 10 min remaining, 1 dog strikes in, then 7 min remaining 1 more dog strikes in with it. Other 3 dogs remain in the woods. 1 min left, 1 other dog runs by the judge toward the deer running dogs but does not go to or with them. At end if the hunt, judge scratched all 3 dogs for running deer. The last dog did not bark or join in but yet scratched for running off game. Was it right, NO! The last dog got treated unfairly.

I've seen a lot of hounds get scratched by a deer chasing dog. If one or more is barking on track and pursue it like a rabbit, then they should be scratched. But after 10 min if a hound goes toward a barking dog, and makes no attempt to pursue is not a deer runner.

WARDOG is correct. In LP format we have set rules that we are SUPPOSE to go by. I've seen rules beat a good dog and save a mouthy one. But we have to go by the set rules. That's why we have them. Same goes for over 15" hounds.

Chimney Rock, i laughed when I read turtles. Lol! I had a beagle once, no matter where we were at, if he found a turtle he'd bring it back to me. Lol

[blitzen]

I agree with MarkH and chimneyrock. Black and white. Casey it doesn't matter what we think or what we would do the judge must follow the rules if you don't like the call don't sign the card. Dave

[rabbitatfarm]

Warddog;

Well said. That was my point. Minus for not producing, pulling from check area in relation to small off game, okay, but don't give me a minus for "running off game" unless it is as the rule book reads. Judges also need to know and follow all the rules. It's up to the trialers to know the rules so they don't get shafted by a judge who thinks or interprets the rules as he sees fit. Mistakes are made often and if I know the rules I can protest logically. Remember if no rules are violated, there is no protest. The judge's call stands.

[Little Indian Creek]

The off game list is intended to be fast game. A bob cat is fast game A house cat is not. If you ever run both of them you will relize a cat is not a cat.

[Casey Harner]

I agree with MarkH and chimneyrock. Black and white. Casey it doesn't matter what we think or what we would do the judge must follow the rules if you don't like the call don't sign the card. Dave

Your right it doesn't matter what we think, it's in the rules and nobody is gonna change it. I'm just surprised that house cat isn't considered disqualification if it's ran.

[warddog]

In the many years I have followed hounds I have never in my life smelled exactly what the hounds were opening up on at the time. I have seen MANY coon hounds take off out of the country and fall treed away from the cast to score BIG points time after time. FACTS are I knew of many packing Grand nite titles and top stud dogs that got their titles just that way. Normally fast game that leaves the country is not hard to ascertain that something isn't right when the cast doesn't go along BUT when they put a tree at the end of one of those it is hard to prove what actually occurred. Non-fast game is an entirely different story in that those tracks do not seem to leave the country or hunting area and I believe that dogs will pop off at times on everything from A mouse to turtle. I never make the claim of any dog I own running nothing but a rabbit as I cannot say that I personally know for a fact what it smells. I have watched many dogs over the years get rabbity but never really open or produce a rabbit and am sure they were smelling squirrel tracks but could not prove it as I never saw the squirrel either. I believe the framers of the rules take all this into consideration so as to give the dogs the benefit of the doubt on small game as it seldom disrupts the hunt like dogs leaving the country on fast game does.

[walkerdogman85]

At a recent LP trial we had 3 dogs open all at once, they ran a bit then we heard a fight, we ran in and 3 dogs were stretching a baby coon. The judge was also in the dark on the issue as to what to do. When the 3 dogs opened he yelled out what order he thought they opened in and we agreed, then came the coon fight. He then agreed to minus the first struck in dog, after he called a guy who has judged for years. he said that it was minor game and is just a minus situation, he then said all major game your scratched.

[rabbitatfarm]

If that was at a recent trial, to disqualify all three dogs was a bad call, IMO. Presses my point; know the rules and file a protest based on those rules. First dog should have got a minus for "not producing" and that should have been the only score.