UKC Hunting Beagle "Rule" Situation

[hurryup]

No reason to call time out on this cast.dogs nor handlers were in danger and they were not moving to a new hunting area..it used to be a total of 30 min. But that has changed..

[Sundown Beagles]

Original post states "track was declared a loss" I assume 3 minutes got them and YES the hounds have to be caught. Once it was determined that a hound was unable to be handled a time out should have been called and handlers given 30 minutes to return to the cast. This would be in accordance with the UKC rulebook. Once a judge declares a dead track (no progress in a 3 minute time period) all dogs are to be caught. Again the 30 minutes does not start until a time out has been called.

[gun runner]

If a dog is not on the track and braking there is no reason it should take 30 min to get you dog under control.If it take that long,it is time for a dirt bath.

[warddog]

No reason to call time out on this cast.dogs nor handlers were in danger and they were not moving to a new hunting area..it used to be a total of 30 min. But that has changed..

Having just read the UKC hunting beagle rule book I find these rules are almost identical to coon hound trials with rabbits replacing coon and a line replacing a tree. The reason to call time out is that the the track was ruled lost/finished. It was then up to the judge to determine if they were going to continue to hunt that area or move to another. Once that decision was made it was then the judge's responsiblity to get the cast together so as to continue as a pack and tell them to handle their dogs. Once the cast knew what was to happen it was then the responsibility of the handlers to get their dogs together where ever it was decided the hunt would contunue. At that point it would only seem logical to me and within the rules to call time out so as NOT to lose hunt time when handling dogs is NOT hunting. If I were on the cast I would have requested that time out be called so that the dogs and the handlers could be gotten together to finish the cast. That would have given them 30 minutes to gather their dogs or be scratched be it the dog on one side by itself or the others on the other side together. It matters not where the dogs are but rather where the judge/guide wants to hunt!
I have been scratched for delay of cast and scratched myself in a nite hunt when I could not round up my deep hunting dog to get the cast together within the 30 minute time limit. I knew when I turned him loose that I better lift up his tail, kiss his butt good by,because when I cut him off the lead, he would go utill he got treed, somewhere regardless of what the other dogs were doing. GREAT on good nights that coon were moving but BAD on the nights that they weren't.

[MES Kennels]

You had better check your rule book on calling time outs. Unable to handle dogs is not one of the reasons.
In the above scenario, I would have voted on splitting on the jumped rabbit,( unless it was the original rabbit, you just took minus on), turned the one dog loose on it, that should have called the other dogs over, if not, oh well, score the one dog. Don't punish the dog that handles. If the vote goes the other way, walk away, recast dog and open strikes.
No reason for a time out, unless the other side of the creek is different land that you don't have permission to hunt on.
I see this rule being twisted a lot. It says scratched for delaying the cast for 30 minutes after time out is called in accordance with rule #7. If you have no legitimate reason for calling time out in accordance with rule #7 then you don't call time out period.

I agree with you that the Rulebook (Rule 7, pg 45 of 2012-2013 HB Rules) does not explicitly state that a time-out can be called for the inability to handle the dogs. I think the spirit of Rule 7(e) "If cast becomes lost" appears to cover this type of scenario. Although the dogs are not actually "lost," they cannot be reached for the moment. It's a coin toss on how this would shake out in the cast vote, especially when a majority of the dogs are the ones that have a chance at being scratched. I could not agree more with your statement for how to handle the situation in the future. I hated holding my dog back when a rabbit jumped right in front of him. I don't mind holding them back for a minute to let the rabbit getting a trail set down; but in this case, I had to hold him back completely and not let him run the rabbit. I think I should have released him, let him run that rabbit and re-handled him after we leashed the other dogs.

At that point it would only seem logical to me and within the rules to call time out so as NOT to lose hunt time when handling dogs is NOT hunting. If I were on the cast I would have requested that time out be called so that the dogs and the handlers could be gotten together to finish the cast.

I agree, the spirit of the rules should not allow for time to be wasted when a couple dogs are not handled properly. I think the UKC should take something like this into the rules because it seems like it could happen especially when running on public lands or very open hunting lands.

As for the effects of your hound during this time? Nothing you can do about it.

I am not entirely sure if this is normal or happens regularly but this particular dog has a tendency that may explain the behavior. Not sure if it would exactly apply to this situation. I have ran this dog with several hounds and packs. One thing I noticed is that if there is a dog that opens up on off game, cold tracks, or just babbles my dog will try to pack up with it the first or second time, but if he doesn't smell the rabbit, he will not pack up if that dog opens up later. When watching it happen, the dog will open up and my dog will pack but then split off within 2-5 minutes if there is not a rabbit. Then after that if the dog opens up, he will look up and listen, but then will not pack up with that dog. If the first dog is on a rabbit, then he will run it and "trust" that dog after that and pack up with it.

Either one of two things is happening, 1) My dog either does not have a good nose and is missing the scent or is not smart enough to know the scent; or 2) He has enough brains to know what dog babbles and what dog is honest. I am not experienced enough to know which one that is. Either could be possible.

[MES Kennels]

Original post states "track was declared a loss" I assume 3 minutes got them and YES the hounds have to be caught. Once it was determined that a hound was unable to be handled a time out should have been called and handlers given 30 minutes to return to the cast. This would be in accordance with the UKC rulebook. Once a judge declares a dead track (no progress in a 3 minute time period) all dogs are to be caught. Again the 30 minutes does not start until a time out has been called.

This is exactly what happened. The track was declared lost, and then the dogs were commanded to be leashed. I did not know about the time-out provisions which could have helped. This is why I asked everyone here on Am. Beagler.

If a dog is not on the track and braking there is no reason it should take 30 min to get you dog under control.If it take that long,it is time for a dirt bath.

You don't have to tell me that. I was TICKED while I watch these dogs disregard their handlers calls while my dog went nuts wanting to run more rabbits.

[Bradh]

Dave I have always seen it done the way your describing but I can see where this will fall into a grey area as the dogs were not lost they were not out of hearing or running in danger they were not to close to another cast they weren't on posted land and new ground requiring 10 minutes of travel time was not needed? So yeah they should of been scratched but I'm betting if you told one of them hey you got 30 minutes to get your dog or it's scratched someone would of been crossing the creek.

Warddog you don't call timeout in beagles after the track is finished unless your planning to get in the truck and drive to a new spot which pretty much never happens majority of casts are ran on the same grounds.

I know how this situation has been done in the past but there is nothing in the 2012/2013 rulebook that fits this situation exactly.

Rule 7 Time Outs
Judge or Majority of cast if hunting judge is used may call timeouts and circle any unscored points for the following reasons.

A. When dogs are getting onto a road or trailing onto posted land where they or the hunters are in danger

B. When other hunters get to close causing dogs to join the other pack.

C. If new round must be found If new ground must be found more then 10 minutes away by vehicle.

D. In case of accident or sickness

E.If cast becomes lost

F. When dogs are trailing out hearing distance in different directions.

I'm not defending any of the dogs in this cast I wasn't on it but in the description given none of this happened. I agree they should of been scratched for not handling and delaying the cast for 30 minutes as said in rule 6h but it says in accordance with rule 7 since the dogs didn't break any of rule 7 seems to me this is something that maybe should be added onto rule 6 I know common sense should dictate and the handlers should have 30 minutes to catch there dogs or they are scratched but if it isn't in black and white someone will always find away around it.

[Sundown Beagles]

Brad, rule 7 covers timeouts that points are to be circled. In this case points were minused (due to loss of track). Once the track was dead, judge is to call dead track and instruct handlers to handle dogs. Once it is determined that the hunt is being delayed (dog not handling) then judge is to advise handlers that a time out has been called and they have 30 minutes to return to the cast. It has always been my understanding that the judge has the right to call a timeout if needed.

[hurryup]

Dave where does it say that? Not in the rules 2012/2013?

[chapkosbeagles]

i am going to start blowing these ukc hunts up again watch out.


be perpared boys to have that non hunting judge. I WILL WANT ONE AT EVERY HUNT. master of hounds has to apoint non hunting judge in a cast when requested.


the problum with ukc is the judge has a dog in the cast and is bias to his own hound. so if the call benifits him he will vote your way. if it dont exspect him to vote the other way.

most clubs will put the same guys as judges hunt after hunt. this way they dont ever have to compete against one another. this is rigging cast in a sence.

out side of these things it is the best formatt for hunting beagles. notice i said hunting.

[mike carder]

Re: UKC Hunting Beagle "Rule" Situation
by chapkosbeagles » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:20 am
i am going to start blowing these ukc hunts up again watch out.


be perpared boys to have that non hunting judge. I WILL WANT ONE AT EVERY HUNT. master of hounds has to apoint non hunting judge in a cast when requested.


Where is that in the rule book? Didn't see that. But I have been wrong before.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

You can and should put the clock on them..... We had a gigantic discussion about it on the UKC site about three months ago. Jed and Allen both agreed that that rule 7 applies to handlers who can't get there dogs while moving to new hunting grounds. Even if the new grounds are ten feet away, if it takes you more than ten minutes to get the dogs freely casted then you call a timeout. We really need to put this in the rule book explicitly. Some casts call timeout right away to not lose hunt time and some casts I think purposely dilly dally around if their dog, or a buddies is in the lead.

[warddog]

Bradh,

I don't have the 2012-2013 rules but what I have looked at on the UKC site seems to be nearly identical to what were in affect when I coon huntyed other than switching coon to rabbits and trees for a line. Whit that said in in my obtaining a MOF license I learned that one must read and apple the ENTIRE set of rules and not look for specifics to address each and every situation. This situation requires a judge to be able to do so and to know as well as understand as someone already pointed out rule 7 is specific to scoring. In any UKC hunt it was clearly understood that ones the scorecard was handed over to the judge he was not only in charge of making the calls BUT responsible for them as well. The entire principle of having a trial is so as to cast the dogs out together so as to see which one(s) can rise above the others in their competition. Minus ALL dogs being together you have no cast or pack but rather a single dog or a group of singles. Rule 15 CLEARLY describes ALL of this and one must have the common sense to put the entire rule book together as a ruling document. The judge is responsible to get the cast together so as to continue the hunt and in this situation there is a rabbit available to be scored on after a track is called dead and if the judge and or the cast did NOT want to call time out with no other dogs open on a track then I would have either demanded to call time out and get them together or cut my dog off the lead on the rabbit that was just jumped and shut the other dogs out of the race. YOU decide BUT the judge has the sole responsibility to get the cast together. The calling of time out is not all inclusive as in this situatioon there was a reason that the dogs could not or would not cast together. If I were judge time out would have been called and if those were scratched for not being able to handle their dogs then they had an option, TAKE IT TO THE MOH! To me it's a no brainer as you have a hunt in limbo one dog on the lead and three not hunting where the judge wants to cast them.

[hurryup]

Ok samething when one dog in cast jumps a deer in front of cast and runs off on it..do you call time out or continue the hunt?

[mike carder]

Well I was hunting with Todd Morgan one year at NHBA days. 2 dogs took a dear and 2 didn't. Todd said to call time out and let's go catch the dogs. I think it is a sportsmanship thing.