trials lets try this again

[Vicious Kennels]

I think its kind of a neat idea may make the judges a little busy but lets say dog a strikes and dog b harks in ten yards away how can you fault dog a from going to dog b is that not what we train them to do?

[Bobby Vest]

In AKC you have Midweat, North or NorthEast, and I think Deep South all SPO but all different organizations thats why they like different styles.

[rockhilldog]

I have a little input on the hunting judge system we use in PKC. At the World Hunt, we use hunting judges all the way to the final cast. Let me give a breakdown of the two World Hunts we have had.

2009 Final Four

Piggie, Ray Ferdig (never judged a round)
Snowflake, Bryan Jones (never judged a round)
Speck, Wade Hill (judged one qualifying round and did not win, Speck won with Wade as just a handler)
Buckshot, Josh Wright (I can't remember if he judged or not)

2010 Final Five

Shay, Donnie Gaines (never judged a round)
Manny, a guy handled him for Wade Hill (never judged a round)
Clyde, Ray Ferdig (never judged a round)
Andy, TJ Rayfield (never judged a round)
Raider, Bob Brattin (judged both rounds with Raider but Bob is as honest as the day is long)

We had excellent judges who did it right, the 2010 World Hunt didn't have the slightest argument or protest. I had judges that judged two or three of the qualifying casts on the first day and they never won their cast. Being a hunting judge isn't for everybody, hunt directors have to put the card in the right man's hands. When that happens, we have a great thing going.

Is it always going to be perfect? No, there isn't a format out there that is. Will we deal with problems as they arise? Yes, as we grow, I know problems are inevitable, it's how we plan to deal with them that is going to make the difference.

Thanks,
Tony Kildow
http://www.prohound.com
rockhilldog@hotmail.com
479-787-0250

[Vicious Kennels]

okay so spo isn't really the format name then midwest is the name an that does not mean they are run just in the midwest but they are midwest syle and so on. The trial I went to was at the columbus beagle club and believe it was spo but someone said it was not midwest and we should run our dogs in the midwest format where and when around central ohio to they run midwest?

[Vicious Kennels]

Tony I have heard alot of good things about pkc and one of my kennel partner has even kicked around the idea of opening a club since we can't seem to find any clubs around here. I heard there is a deal where you tell a new member this is your warning any cheating or problems and you are done I think that is a good way to stop the guys that want to win at all cost and get the guys that like us that just enjoy the dogs and want to have fun.

[Bobby Vest]

They are all SPO but different style hounds in different regions, For example the Northern region doesn't like a dog to out run all the rest they want him to contribute to the pack more.

[Big Mike]

{ I really don't see where Progressive Pack has any holes in their scoring procedures. If AKC had a format to fit what the "MAJORITY" of the dogs running in the PP of today..I'd be there. JUDGING is the #1 problem with NKC hunts! Too many inexperienced people out there judging. }


Just my opinion......
Lance McCarthy[/q

Mr McCarthy
In Progressive Pack i would like to see A defined time frame during a breakdown to determine a check , be it just 3 or 4 seconds.
currently the definition of a check in the Progressive Pack rule book is, "any breakdown in forward progress". to compound the problem the rule states, " a check is not determined by elasped time, forward progress has no pre-set distance.and "dogs do not have to stop barking in the check area".
in my view here lies the problem, i agree their are many inexperienced judges in progressive Pack , but inexperience can be excused , assuming those judges will improve over time and they are giving their best effort. The issue is , the check rule leads to '"creative judging" by experienced judges, here is an example you are fimilar with. I attended a trial in Michigan, In my cast I happened to take a position on ground that was elevated, and we were able to watch the hounds drive a rabbit threw a bottom, and up the the hillside right at us. Those hounds were flat driving that rabbit NO breakdowns. yet Here is the judge running along side the pack continually calling out yellow collar dog for checks. We (you and I)watched the whole thing, because you were standing right next to me, and you were the one that asked "did you see any breakdowns?" which their were none.
With out some sort of defined time, to define a breakdown, this sort of thing will contine. At least a handler would have a means to question scoring of a check. By the way, the yellow collar dog came from the judges kennel, and was sold to the owner by that judge, how about that?

[Vicious Kennels]

some of my kennel partners come up with a good idea that I think might work as far as scoring and judging works. Have a none hunting judge run with the dogs and score the checks and the strike and have the handlers have a seperate score card that when a strike is scored they go to the point of the strike spread out just like as if you were rabbit hunting watch for a line when the rabbit is seen coming back through "just like hunting" the handler that see's a line calls it all handlers come to him as they arive he shows them the line and they as a group score the dog's as they go through. Then when the hunt is called they go back to the truck the judge adds up the score he has and the cast seperatlly ads up there score then the judge rights his score down on there card in front of them adds it up and gives the places.

[Vicious Kennels]

btt

[toldyouso]

first let me start by stating if you are a true houndsman and i use that word loose after one hour you are not going to know which is the best dog it becomes 90 percent luck and 10 percent a good dog.second i do not care if its pkc or ukc a hunting judge in the same cast will be more times wrong then right. when your world hunt is only producing a small amount of entries you may get a way with it. third if you want to see who really has nice hounds leave the dogs judge themselves and what i mean by this run bigger packs longer periods of time and the dogs will tell you who is full of it and who is controlling the pack. thats if you are not kennel blind and you are a true houndsmen and again i use this word very loosely.

[Pete Tuck]

Bobby, I would love to see the 10 second check. To clarify my post, I just think alot of the 10 second checks would be missed because the judges can't keep up. I know that I have to have help with me judging now because of age and slowness. I would not be able to get very many 10 second checks. I do love the idea though. My dogs might actually get a check or two with this rule. This is a great topic.

[Big Mike]

Pete,
that is close to my point in regards to progressive Pack, how in the heck can a judge score " any breakdown in forward progress" ? and the dogs do not have to stop braking in the check area, nor is there a defined distance , that forward progress has been reestablished by the check dog. the difference in speed between a progressive pack dog, and a little pack style dog, in reality is very minimal. Not sure about LP , but i would guess a PP judge only scores about 30% of a race. i believe even a 3-4 second breakdown ( in PP rules) would help alleviate that, it would help the judges, and also give the handlers a better gauge as how their hounds doing during a cast.

[Lance]

Pete,
that is close to my point in regards to progressive Pack, how in the heck can a judge score " any breakdown in forward progress" ? and the dogs do not have to stop braking in the check area, nor is there a defined distance , that forward progress has been reestablished by the check dog. the difference in speed between a progressive pack dog, and a little pack style dog, in reality is very minimal. Not sure about LP , but i would guess a PP judge only scores about 30% of a race. i believe even a 3-4 second breakdown ( in PP rules) would help alleviate that, it would help the judges, and also give the handlers a better gauge as how their hounds doing during a cast.

Big Mike....I really don't see where you can question what a judge is capable of when your not a judge yourself.

[Greg Wells]

I think common sense & honesty from judges will result in a good field trial no matter what format you are running in in. Hunt should be the first thing to look for when you turn the pack loose. The dog that actually jumps the rabbit should get a big plus point (score). The pack should run the LINE or track that the rabbit leaves behind. When in a loss or check, the hounds should work close & quietly to the last point of contact with the line. Cheating hounds should be demerited highly. There are several forms of cheating: 1)finding a loss and sneaking away from the pack a good distance before barking; 2) running to the side of the pack when they are driving & barking on the line; 3) running the front without giving tongue (running mute); 4) swinging around a thicket that the rabbit ran through & picking up the line on the other side (skirting); 5) leaving the check area & gambling to try & find the loss without staying in the check area with the other packmates. 6) barking during a breakdown to try to distract packmates from working the check independently. 7) ghost trailing ( making a false line for other packmates to check ). Other things that hounds should be demerited for are faults; while not cheating, it is a lack of brains such as backtracking (running the track that has already been run backwords); cold trailing ( barking on old scent that rarely can produce a jump). Lack of hunt or desire; standing & waiting for other packmates to do the hard work). These are just a few things that any beagler that uses common sense can see when judging a trial. All hounds may do these things once & a while & shouldn't be eliminated the first time, but when they become repeat offfenders & it clearly is a common occurance from a particular hound & is disrupting the smooth progress of the pack's pursuit of the rabbit, it should be disqualified. When all of these faulty hounds are eliminated, you should have a pack that can really keep the rabbit moving without too many long losses or checks no matter what format you are judging.

[rockhilldog]

I have ran NKC Little Pack for ten years and my experience is that more times than not, the right dog doesn't come back. I have seen this in the few casts I actually got to handle my dog in and I witnessed this often when I would judge the second rounds and finals of hunts. Many times, I couldn't believe how in the world some of these dogs actually won casts. Some people favor a buddy, some not qualified get thrown in to the wolves and are just trying to help out.

However, there are some great knowledgable judges out there that do their absolute best to bring back the right dog and they are commended for that. I feel they will always be outweighed by the judges you have to use to "just get the hunt done" because you can't be there all weekend.

I spent years trying to put together the best team of judges we could and succeeded at times, however, we burned those guys out. They leave, new judges come along and burn out, an endless cycle. Too many times on the night before a hunt, you wonder if you are even going to have enough judges to get your hunt done. The next thing you know, you are burned out and done.

In my opinion, the hunting judge is the best way to go, we still strive to get the best knowledgable and honest judges, they just get to witness their dog run instead of chase other folks dogs all day long. In final casts, PKC does use non-hunting judges.

JMO

Thanks, Tony