Is finishing a dog to akc fc still a big acomplishment

[toldyouso]

Bobby you hit the nail right on the head just do nothing and you will make it to the next round seen this a hundend times.

[mybeagles]

There are some faults that are "AUTOMATIC" elimination in AKC and their are faults that add up to a possible elimination. Very few hounds will run fault free and I think AKC SPO rules give the judge plenty of flexability to determine the severity of the faults in deciding to eliminate the hound or not.

I think most will agree finishing a dog in AKC is a big accomplishment even if its not the style of dog you prefer. I put it on a similar level as Grand Champion in the other formats.

Just because you have a "big accomplishment" doesn't tell the whole story. The bigger question to me is, "How did you accomplish it?....and...."What do you really have now that you accomplished it?"

Mybeagles

[Jamie Rice]

Pine Lakes:
I agree the numbers entered in trials have decreased dramatically compared to what they were in years past. While much of that can be blamed on the number of events today compared to the lesser amount in the past (people don't have to travel as much now), gas prices, losing one's job, along with the type of dogs placing and winning today can be blamed as well. Many have quit coming or gone elsewhere due to obsession of speed. While dogs may have been rough in the past, present, and future as I noted my initial statement THERE'S MORE ROUGHER showing up today. Thus more QUANTITY percentage wise. This is just an example, but hopefully this paints what I was getting out clearer for you. While 30 of the 60 years ago may been rough, 22 of the 30 today are rough. In essence 50% years ago compared to 75% today.

I still stand by the fact that all registries and formats should require a dog to solo his or her own rabbit before they get their title. However I'm sure some would say they aren't covering enough ground, running it too conservative or too rough, or some other excuse to criticize. If we're only concerned with how fast they run or how quick they pick the check up, then maybe we should be running greyhounds and collies. Because a greyhound is faster than a beagle and collie does a better job herding than beagles can. :-)

I agree with you that if that front dog is overrunning, swinging, and/or reaching their packmates should be busting their butt in a perfect world. However if the judge evaluating them is running over to the next ridge to score that swinger or reacher, then that cleaner closer to the point of loss dog is going to get overlooked. As for over running, even I often find myself questioning why the 2nd, 3rd, etc shouldn't be turning it. Some do, most don't because they aren't running the rabbit, but instead just chasing the a$$ of the front dog.

The judge should be at the point of loss scoring the dog that picks the line back up closer to where it lost it rather than farther from it. Dogs should work out gradually from the point of loss rather than leaving the check area immediately as many do. That isn't an opinion or isn't left for us to interpret, but instead spelled out clearly in the standard we're to judge by. Furthermore just because a dog isn't on the front doesn't mean he or she shouldn't place or win. The dog making the least mistakes and accomplishing the most should win or place no matter where they are in the pack. ACCOMPLISHMENT WITH STYLE!

Thus leads to the negative and positive scoring indifference... You can call it negative judging by requiring a cleaner line running hound if you wish, but several of us call it judging closer to the standard. I don't think anyone that's stated less rough hounds should be placing, is obsessed to the point BRACE format turned to or trial/hunt dogs like such. You may wish to think so, but you're wrong. Furthermore we're saying dogs should be spending more time on the rabbit than off the rabbit. However I'll concede that we can only judge what shows up.

While we can agree to disagree on much, I do think you're right "we all should strive to make it better." I guess the debatable part is what's better and what's best, ha ha. Seriously though, you mentioned you are going to be judging next spring. Care to tell us who you are because while I know a Pine Lake I'm not sure if you're whom I think you are. Best of luck to you in your judging assignment.

To a few of you others, an AKC judge isn't given the task to judge based solely on what they keep in their own personal kennel, but instead by the standard which AKC gives us to do so by. If otherwise I'd have to question what some of you would like wouldn't change from trial to trial. Obvious in owners that keep multiple style of dogs in their kennels, but yet only run each depending on what particular guy is judging. In essence, owners that are more focused on winning a ribbon than anything else. Furthermore scenting doesn't make a dog swing, skirt, over run, etc. Lack of concentration, lack of determination, and over competitiveness does. My opinion all three fall under lack of brains. Something I think many of us are owners lack in a few cases. Mostly those that fall under the middle sentences of this paragraph.

I've said enough on this and at this point feel many of us are .

[Pine Lakes]

I don't think the original idea for the brace hounds was the dog they have today, but look at the result. As far as leaving a pack to judge a rough dog over the next ridge, I haven't seen that either. What I have seen many more times than not are winners packs that run tremendously better than previous series. That in itself should tell us that the judges are usually doing a good job. When I see a dog leading a pack while running "rough" I'm begging for someone to make him look stupid. If that doesn't occur I have no other choice than to give that dog a win based on accomplishment. Don't twist that into tolerating cheating by reaching, running mute, or any other unwanted characteristics. Like you said, there are limits as to what is acceptable and that is to the discretion of the judges. I'll give you an example. I ran my male in Great Miami's 15" class Saturday. The running was terrible to say the least. My dog opened 3 times and hunted hard the entire cast. Another male that has the reputation as being fast and rough accomplished more than the rest of the pack put together. He also did more wrong in my opinion. It might not have been text book but without him there would have been nothing. I would have done the same as the judges and brought that dog back to second series. I've also seen this dog run in much better conditions at a previous trial that I marshalled. The dog jumped more rabbits, claimed more checks, and more often than not was leading the pack. He would run off the end at times but always shut his mouth, hurried back to the point of loss, and claimed the loss more than any other dog in that winners pack. Do you think he deserved to win? He did in my opinion, but that wasn't the case. I think he took third and a dog that was much more conservative and accomplished very little in my opinion won that day. This happens on a regular basis so I guess all this complaning about rough hounds overtaking the Mid-West doesn't hold much water with me. I'm done with also as not much more can be said. Good luck to all!

Chip Davis

[eddywilliams]

Well spoken PINE LAKES .

[BG BEAGLER]

Keeping a variety of running styles in a kennel shows brains to me.... If scenting is bad then ur more conservativ hound has a better chance if scenting is good the dogs with more foot will look better....also shows a lot of heart and intelligence in the owner handler....U know how many more hours in the field these people spend getting two different kinds if hounds ready for the same hunt???? having options is a plus....u can't run the same play in football and consistently win.... U gotta have options to keep showing up week to week....there are exceptions.....I'm not naive enough to believe that there haven't been dogs out there that can win week to week I just don't own any haha

The same Style of hound doesn't win everyday....As a judge u have to allow for the game....u have to keep an open mind....judging with a closed mind with tunnel vision shows a lack of brains to me....a judge that can place different kind of hounds based on the existing variables day to day shows intelligence to me not a lack of brains....

I'd rather enter multiple styles of hounds than not enter any at all....u can't win if ya don't play the game and it easy to referee and preach when u don't have a dog in the fight....yea we all get busy in life and have kids and work 60 hours a week and have misfortunes now again but that what separates the men from the boys....show some HEART....if u wanna compete run ur dogs go to the hunts....ya can't half azz get ur dogs ready and enter em or not enter any at all and complain....if y wanna play with the men you gotta be a man and realize that ya get beat more than ya win and also that ur nit always right....if ya can't realize this then stick to a boys game like kickballor grabazz...maybe u can be all time roller....don't be a hypocrite....anyone that says one thing and does another leaves themselves open for question

Saying that entering multiple style of hounds show lack of brains is almost as thoughtless as saying that FC doesn't mean anything.....if ur heart not in to what ur doing then y r u doing it

[Ohiohntr]

And Bingo was his name O'

[Casey Harner]

stick to a boys game like kickballor

I was a kick ball champion, best pitcher/roller in 25 states....GET YA SOME!!! Just the tip tho Maverick!!!!

[toldyouso]

Matt Maple once again I have been impressed by your wisdom LOL

[Jamie Rice]

Josh sorry that your post has turned into a pecker measuring contest. Chip guess I've changed my mind. Hopefully you'll give me this mulligan as I can't help to bury the horse. I apologize for a long winded post, but like one of my peers told me in another post of mine. Sometimes you have to go into great detail before some people get what you're asking or saying. Plus like Mr. Gibeaut says, I like to talk, ha ha

Matt my friend, you switch to scenting once again. I guess I'm one of the minority, because I'm not going to keep a specialist for every single condition. A true rabbit hound should be able to ADAPT to whatever scenting condition is presented to him: be it snow, sod, or sand, be it hare, cottontail, or swamper, be it rainy and damp or drier than a popcorn fart. Speed shouldn't determine whether a dog places on high scenting days or bad scenting days. BRAINS AND NOSE or lack of such will. Furthermore dogs can't adapt to whether a judge likes them rough or likes them conservative. That previous statement is why some guys are running a different dog each week, not because of scenting.

Your football simile doesn't hold value either. Here's why, Green Bay isn't playing it's scout team against Indianapolis while playing it's first string against San Francisco. They ain't playing Aaron Rodgers in snow and Matt Flynn in warm weather. They play the same guys week in and week out (excluding those that may be injured). By the way as a Chicago Bears fan, I hate Green Bay with a passion. Anyhow I agree with you though, they may change which play they use. That's called adapting because they use the same quarterback, same running back, and same wide receivers. Adaptability is one of the desirable qualities that falls under section 5-B in SPO Rulebook. That isn't preaching or refereeing, that's reality.

We do share a few thing in common despite wearing different Boonie hats and flamboyant bandanas as well. :-) That being, not having a dog that can win week in and week out. Why? Mine can't adapt to whether one judge likes her rougher than a cob and another likes her to run more towards what rulebook states. Furthermore you're right the same style of hound doesn't win every day. Yes a judge should use common sense as well. Common sense that front end isn't the best dog always though. I'm sure some think I have tunnel vision and headed towards bracedom, but they couldn't be further from the truth. Not that I need defend my actions by any means, but I've placed rougher hounds because they accomplished something, because they accounted for their game, because they spent more time running than not running, and sometimes because I had no choice given that's all that showed up. However several of those placed was also picked up other times in first series because they didn't have the brains to know when to shut up when they over ran it and furthermore was weaving and bobbing when rabbit ran straight. Despite some's belief, I do have an open mind. If I didn't some fellows from the Central KY area and Ohio that's ran my name through the mud would've never won under me. :-)

I'll give you that I and my partners in travel haven't trialed any in 2011. I'm sure they have their varying reasons. Mine is blamed to losing a job and having extra funds cut in half. Sure may sound like an excuse, but when it comes to paying rent, utilities, and buying food that's going to takes priority over spending $200 or more traveling to a trial every week. Nevertheless even when I did have the extra funds, I wasn't at every single trial. You see after 16 years of putting my heart, desire, and money into being former president and treasurer of federation listening to two different friends at the time calling each day b!tching about the other being a cheater, field trial secretary of a club last 9 years, and more importantly attending an average of 15 to 20 trials a year, I've learned who I stand a chance of being able to compete under and who I don't. As Kenny Rogers sung I've made a living out of reading people's faces. And arrogant as it may sound, my first impression usually is never off. Heck I'm not going to waste my time and more importantly my money running under everyone. That's not very logical or cost effective. And I'll admit I just got burned out and needed a break.

Now if guys shouldn't say anything if they aren't running every weekend, then I guess only a few opinions will ever count. That's like my comment about older judges, it don't some 28 trials to see what's apparent in 10. Furthermore like saying a guy's opinion shouldn't count unless he's a judge. Heck why do I need a licenses to tell me what my eyes are showing me? Before we go off on another tangent, let me try to continue replying to your comments. I could say I've never half a$$ed got a dog ready for a trial, but I'd be lying. I had to think deeply. It gave me a headache. Maybe I shouldn't shot those green and silver bullets or carried that mason jar around. All jokes asides I guess I have brought dogs to trials occasionally when others probably would say they weren't 100%.

The one that stands out the greatest is the following. I only got to run a dog 30 minutes within a month, thanks to college and working 60 hours a week as well. But being the neophyte and gungho 19 year old I took her to trial anyhow because I thought I had to support everyone at that time in my life. Wanna know what happen? The little black and tan 11 inch pencil tail beagle (Morton Sexton I love you for that statement ole friend and saying my heart was beating through the back of my Carhartt) made second series at the "Superbowl" on a Thursday in 65 to 70 degree short sleeve day, came back on Friday in three inches of snow and 30 or less degrees and earned a very close 2nd behind hound that made a IFC few months later. Now if some of you think that's bragging, let me back it up with some more. A few weeks later she followed up that near win, with a 1st place at Great Miami. So if my dog almost got back to back wins against high quality hounds of that time with half ass preparation, what's that say about those that slept night in and night out in their truck running theirs 40+ hours a week? Saying one thing and doing another may leave one open to question, but following the rulebook as close as common sense allows is what one agrees to do when they agree to judge. Fact is there's a lot of things one could question this day and age.

This isn't directed towards you in particular, but a general statement instead. Here's a couple things that many of us around the circuit question here lately. Guys getting the same person to judge the same class for four different clubs they have influence over. The one that raises my eyebrows the most is a judge calling several field trial secretaries in the federation saying they'll judge when many are struggling to find judges. Now that may seem like they're willing to help and I agree it appears that way. However when judge A is trying to persuade the the club into getting judge B on the class judge A runs, well... that makes you wonder things. You see you can't b!tch one weekend about AKC having all buddy judges when your dogs aren't placing and then leave yourself open to appearing likewise the next. Kind of hypocritical and questionable on each account wouldn't you posters say?

I'd rather play with women, but to each their own. Anyhow I fully realize that you get beat more times that you win. Ask 90% of the newbs that come into AKC what I tell them. You gotta learn how to lose, before you'll ever learn how to win. If you don't know what that means then you'll never succeed with not only dogs, but in life in general. If I gave up easy I never would've had as much success with the dog I spoke about above. Took me two years before I even barely started making it out of the first series. Hell most guys would've quit by then or bought something to suit the judges instead because they're more concern with winning a ribbon. I had faith in her and well when she started placing she pretty much was doing so every single weekend. Yet I was stupid and put her up when she was on a roll and probably hurt her chances of finishing as a FC. However I was lucky enough to breed, raise, train, and compete with her daughter who ended up accomplishing that goal. 26 winners packs out of 30 trials, placing 22 times from Louisiana to New York on cottontail, hare, and swampers in snow, sod, and sand. Not bad for a half-a$$ hypocritical loud mouth former 6th grade kickball champion 'eh? ;-)

[BG BEAGLER]

Jaime u had me at hello hahahahaha

Your dedication to the sport is second to none period

U run a great hunt at your club

I enjoy the debate and company of u and Sticky I mean Earl

Very little of the post I made was targeted at u rather than just a generalization toward this entire thread but I will stick behind my belief that FC means something

I'm putting mine back in my pants.... done measuring....done posting....before I unintentionally offend another houndsman that I respect And that is equally passionate about this sport

I will add that I was also a kickball phenomenon throughout my middle school career

[hounddog]

Matt, when I grow up I want be to be just like you. Opps too late! Lol

hounddog
Jim Umbarger

[drifter22no1]

Keeping a variety of running styles in a kennel shows brains to me.... If scenting is bad then ur more conservativ hound has a better chance if scenting is good the dogs with more foot will look better....also shows a lot of heart and intelligence in the owner handler....U know how many more hours in the field these people spend getting two different kinds if hounds ready for the same hunt???? having options is a plus....u can't run the same play in football and consistently win.... U gotta have options to keep showing up week to week....there are exceptions.....I'm not naive enough to believe that there haven't been dogs out there that can win week to week I just don't own any haha

The same Style of hound doesn't win everyday....As a judge u have to allow for the game....u have to keep an open mind....judging with a closed mind with tunnel vision shows a lack of brains to me....a judge that can place different kind of hounds based on the existing variables day to day shows intelligence to me not a lack of brains....

I'd rather enter multiple styles of hounds than not enter any at all....u can't win if ya don't play the game and it easy to referee and preach when u don't have a dog in the fight....yea we all get busy in life and have kids and work 60 hours a week and have misfortunes now again but that what separates the men from the boys....show some HEART....if u wanna compete run ur dogs go to the hunts....ya can't half azz get ur dogs ready and enter em or not enter any at all and complain....if y wanna play with the men you gotta be a man and realize that ya get beat more than ya win and also that ur nit always right....if ya can't realize this then stick to a boys game like kickballor grabazz...maybe u can be all time roller....don't be a hypocrite....anyone that says one thing and does another leaves themselves open for question

Saying that entering multiple style of hounds show lack of brains is almost as thoughtless as saying that FC doesn't mean anything.....if ur heart not in to what ur doing then y r u doing it

Now there is a odd perspective?

[drifter22no1]

Josh sorry that your post has turned into a pecker measuring contest. Chip guess I've changed my mind. Hopefully you'll give me this mulligan as I can't help to bury the horse. I apologize for a long winded post, but like one of my peers told me in another post of mine. Sometimes you have to go into great detail before some people get what you're asking or saying. Plus like Mr. Gibeaut says, I like to talk, ha ha

Matt my friend, you switch to scenting once again. I guess I'm one of the minority, because I'm not going to keep a specialist for every single condition. A true rabbit hound should be able to ADAPT to whatever scenting condition is presented to him: be it snow, sod, or sand, be it hare, cottontail, or swamper, be it rainy and damp or drier than a popcorn fart. Speed shouldn't determine whether a dog places on high scenting days or bad scenting days. BRAINS AND NOSE or lack of such will. Furthermore dogs can't adapt to whether a judge likes them rough or likes them conservative. That previous statement is why some guys are running a different dog each week, not because of scenting.

Your football simile doesn't hold value either. Here's why, Green Bay isn't playing it's scout team against Indianapolis while playing it's first string against San Francisco. They ain't playing Aaron Rodgers in snow and Matt Flynn in warm weather. They play the same guys week in and week out (excluding those that may be injured). By the way as a Chicago Bears fan, I hate Green Bay with a passion. Anyhow I agree with you though, they may change which play they use. That's called adapting because they use the same quarterback, same running back, and same wide receivers. Adaptability is one of the desirable qualities that falls under section 5-B in SPO Rulebook. That isn't preaching or refereeing, that's reality.

We do share a few thing in common despite wearing different Boonie hats and flamboyant bandanas as well. :-) That being, not having a dog that can win week in and week out. Why? Mine can't adapt to whether one judge likes her rougher than a cob and another likes her to run more towards what rulebook states. Furthermore you're right the same style of hound doesn't win every day. Yes a judge should use common sense as well. Common sense that front end isn't the best dog always though. I'm sure some think I have tunnel vision and headed towards bracedom, but they couldn't be further from the truth. Not that I need defend my actions by any means, but I've placed rougher hounds because they accomplished something, because they accounted for their game, because they spent more time running than not running, and sometimes because I had no choice given that's all that showed up. However several of those placed was also picked up other times in first series because they didn't have the brains to know when to shut up when they over ran it and furthermore was weaving and bobbing when rabbit ran straight. Despite some's belief, I do have an open mind. If I didn't some fellows from the Central KY area and Ohio that's ran my name through the mud would've never won under me. :-)

I'll give you that I and my partners in travel haven't trialed any in 2011. I'm sure they have their varying reasons. Mine is blamed to losing a job and having extra funds cut in half. Sure may sound like an excuse, but when it comes to paying rent, utilities, and buying food that's going to takes priority over spending $200 or more traveling to a trial every week. Nevertheless even when I did have the extra funds, I wasn't at every single trial. You see after 16 years of putting my heart, desire, and money into being former president and treasurer of federation listening to two different friends at the time calling each day b!tching about the other being a cheater, field trial secretary of a club last 9 years, and more importantly attending an average of 15 to 20 trials a year, I've learned who I stand a chance of being able to compete under and who I don't. As Kenny Rogers sung I've made a living out of reading people's faces. And arrogant as it may sound, my first impression usually is never off. Heck I'm not going to waste my time and more importantly my money running under everyone. That's not very logical or cost effective. And I'll admit I just got burned out and needed a break.

Now if guys shouldn't say anything if they aren't running every weekend, then I guess only a few opinions will ever count. That's like my comment about older judges, it don't some 28 trials to see what's apparent in 10. Furthermore like saying a guy's opinion shouldn't count unless he's a judge. Heck why do I need a licenses to tell me what my eyes are showing me? Before we go off on another tangent, let me try to continue replying to your comments. I could say I've never half a$$ed got a dog ready for a trial, but I'd be lying. I had to think deeply. It gave me a headache. Maybe I shouldn't shot those green and silver bullets or carried that mason jar around. All jokes asides I guess I have brought dogs to trials occasionally when others probably would say they weren't 100%.

The one that stands out the greatest is the following. I only got to run a dog 30 minutes within a month, thanks to college and working 60 hours a week as well. But being the neophyte and gungho 19 year old I took her to trial anyhow because I thought I had to support everyone at that time in my life. Wanna know what happen? The little black and tan 11 inch pencil tail beagle (Morton Sexton I love you for that statement ole friend and saying my heart was beating through the back of my Carhartt) made second series at the "Superbowl" on a Thursday in 65 to 70 degree short sleeve day, came back on Friday in three inches of snow and 30 or less degrees and earned a very close 2nd behind hound that made a IFC few months later. Now if some of you think that's bragging, let me back it up with some more. A few weeks later she followed up that near win, with a 1st place at Great Miami. So if my dog almost got back to back wins against high quality hounds of that time with half ass preparation, what's that say about those that slept night in and night out in their truck running theirs 40+ hours a week? Saying one thing and doing another may leave one open to question, but following the rulebook as close as common sense allows is what one agrees to do when they agree to judge. Fact is there's a lot of things one could question this day and age.

This isn't directed towards you in particular, but a general statement instead. Here's a couple things that many of us around the circuit question here lately. Guys getting the same person to judge the same class for four different clubs they have influence over. The one that raises my eyebrows the most is a judge calling several field trial secretaries in the federation saying they'll judge when many are struggling to find judges. Now that may seem like they're willing to help and I agree it appears that way. However when judge A is trying to persuade the the club into getting judge B on the class judge A runs, well... that makes you wonder things. You see you can't b!tch one weekend about AKC having all buddy judges when your dogs aren't placing and then leave yourself open to appearing likewise the next. Kind of hypocritical and questionable on each account wouldn't you posters say?

I'd rather play with women, but to each their own. Anyhow I fully realize that you get beat more times that you win. Ask 90% of the newbs that come into AKC what I tell them. You gotta learn how to lose, before you'll ever learn how to win. If you don't know what that means then you'll never succeed with not only dogs, but in life in general. If I gave up easy I never would've had as much success with the dog I spoke about above. Took me two years before I even barely started making it out of the first series. Hell most guys would've quit by then or bought something to suit the judges instead because they're more concern with winning a ribbon. I had faith in her and well when she started placing she pretty much was doing so every single weekend. Yet I was stupid and put her up when she was on a roll and probably hurt her chances of finishing as a FC. However I was lucky enough to breed, raise, train, and compete with her daughter who ended up accomplishing that goal. 26 winners packs out of 30 trials, placing 22 times from Louisiana to New York on cottontail, hare, and swampers in snow, sod, and sand. Not bad for a half-a$$ hypocritical loud mouth former 6th grade kickball champion 'eh? ;-)

Jamie,

yours are the most logical posts on this thread, of course from an AKC perspective that is, or I should say from an AKC Rule Book perspective

[RDN61]

Good post Jamie