I have a Question?

[primetime21]

With all this talk about big dogs and dogs being measured at trials was wondering if anything written or saying anywhere about a person scratching a dog before being measured. Say for instance youare at stake and judge approaches you and says your dog is being challenged and you say fine scratch him is this legal or not. Now basically I understand the owner is saying well he is big or might be over but chances are he is at a big hunt or away from home a distance and probably might not run into those same people or dogs again so he might not care. I believe most of the measuring goes on away from your area or at big hunts anyway. I am asking this cause I have seen people bring a female to a stake and notice she is in heat and say scratch her or a person bring a dog to a cast and might not get a handler and have to scratch it so was just wondering if my described situation has happened or does happen. I notice there are dogs still running and winning that have been challenged and been over when measured just wondering if they no where to and not to go or if this situation I desribed does happen. Any info would be appreciated incase I ever run into this situation I have ran in ARHA since the early 90's and seen many challeneged and some make it and some don't just wondering what happens if someone does try to scratch can they or not.



Thanks Ken

[SilverZuk]

No one can force you to do anything.
I know of two instances when asked to measure, the handler picked the dog up and went to the truck.
If I remember correctly there are no repercussions for scratching your dog.

[dogwhisperer]

im pretty sure if you scratch your dog after it has been challenged it goes down as over sized. its like scratching your dog to prevent it from being scratched by a judge for running off game..it still goes down for running off game..The reason you still see these dogs that are over and have already been measured out at a different trial is because they have to be measured over 15 inches 3 times before they are banned.hope this helps ya

[jogletree]

I know this doesn't quite answer your question, but another statement you made has me puzzled. Are you saying you saw or know of someone having to scratch a dog because they could not get someone to handle it on the cast? That is absolutely absurd!!! Before I got my judging license, there were times that I would handle as many as three dogs in a cast, one of which was my own. I am usually judging now and have to rely on someone else to handle mine, but that is just ridiculous.

[primetime21]

You read correct but honestly it was the owner's decision believe it or not some people are picky about who may handle their dog or even might have been the judge and maybe thought might not get a fair shake I did not ask I just offered to handle and was told no Thank You. I am wanting to get some concrete answers so if I ever run into this I want to be able to back my decision up. Is it written in black and white somewhere what happens or if it can be done. I was hoping to get Paul Prevot or some of those guys who have been MOH's at some of the big one's and might have ran into this. Heck I have been MOH for close to 10 years and been around the World probably but never seen anyone scratch a dog after being challenged for height. Just wanting to no for sure if can be done or not.

[jakemoore]

In ARHA a preson can handle as many dogs as he pleases from my experience.... In UKC hunts only one dog per handler..Also every dog is measured before the cast are drawn out.
Reguardless of how many times it has been measured in the past. It doesn't matter if it is a big hunt or not....all dogs competeing are measured!!!!!

It looks to me if the dog has not yet been registered to hunt that day then it would not matter if you were challenged. My buddy was challenged not to long ago. they had that dog stood up as if it were a bench show.....From my understanding the dog is to be measured from its natural standing position. Not bench show position.. The dog turned out to be 15 on the money !!!!

[wvduece]

when they measure in arha if the bar touches the dogs hair is that where they measure from or can it go on down to its back i know thats not much but it can make a difference pops i belive in UKC you can get a dog permenet measured at one of the big hunts i wont bet on it but i belive ya can jb

[Vansickle Jr.]

WVDuece, i recently made my judging card in ARHA, And it can hit there backs. As far as i know. So Ever little bit does help. But That is what i know.

[John Lear]

Here is the very problem that gives me cold feet about getting serious about N.K.C. So many people judging dogs or situations that don't know the rules. This guy is asking about a possible rule violation because he doesn't know what the rules say about this and then says he has been a MASTER OF HOUNDS for TEN YEARS. I'm hoping I have misunderstood his question or about him knowing what to do. There is no direct bashing meant to any one person I'm only bringing out the situation and not the person.
Guys before you go to screaming I KNOW all organizations have many problems and crazy rules but at least hold everybody accountable to know the rules. I was at a N.K.C. hunt last Saturday and there was a judge out on a Grand Champion cast and did not know what to do when he ended up with two dogs tied at the end of the cast. I hadn't been to a hunt for some years and was trying to get interested in them one more time and run into this. I'm trying to hold onto some hope and interest but it sure gets hard to.

[Bunnyblaster]

Hang in there and don't give up on it. I have only been to 2 trials so far and have seen good and bad (inexperienced) judges but I have had a good time on both trips. I was out after the first cast both times but stuck around to watch the rest of the casts and assisted judges twice to try to learn all I could. You're right, the judges should know the rules but so far from what I've noticed if more people would be willing to judge then there would be more and most likely better judges for the casts and they could have an experienced judge with an inexperienced judge to help out. From what I've seen the younger less experienced guys can be a little unsure sometimes and that makes it look bad to the handlers but truth be told we all have to start somewhere to get the experience so maybe they just need to have a better program in place to get these guys trained. jmo

[primetime21]

To Mr. Lear this question was asked because of two reasons first off I have been away from ARHA for close to 3 or four years now I might make a trial once a year maybe depending on family and work. And yes I have been a MOH for quite a while but that is cause once you get your MOH certificate you are always one unless this has changed since I quit trialing. The second reason is cause a club moved closer to my area and asked me to be their MOH so when I can attend I said yes no problem. So now being out of the loop for a while I am just trying to get all the new info and all the rules straight that might have been changed or added and I like to have concrete backing on my decisions no he said she said. I heard from a few people that attended the World that this situation happened people picking up dogs before being measured and I have wondered how many dogs that have been measured over are still running and I am aware that they have to measure over 3 times at three diffrent clubs but are people letting these dogs slide and not measuring them because of owner's and friendship's, are they borderline in or out, or are they picking them up when challenged before measured to be over. I want to be clear and no what to do if this happens at this club I hope to attend. I think by reading a few above posts there are a few diffrent answers one says you can and one says you can't. I would hope by your post and talking about knowing the rules you would be happy someone istrying to get all the stuff straight before making a wrong decision. I read and re-read the rulebook and could not find this scenario or answer in it and I do not like gray areas which there is quite a bit of in trialing. I hope this clears up any doubt you might have had in question if not please feel free to ask any more info.



Thanks Ken

[SilverZuk]

Here are the complete rules.
http://www.arha.com/littlepack/LP%20RULES%202007.pdf

If you want to find something hit your [control] and [f] keys to perform a word search.

Here is the answer (I was too busy to look it up the other day)
The wording is a bit ambiguous. It states if the handler refuses to help stand up the hound it will be sent in to the ARHA office for being oversized. It doesn't say anything specifically about scratching a hound and refusing to measure.
All though it may be implied by "scratching your dog" it could be assumed that you are refusing to help.

9. When being measured, a hound shall be standing in a natural, alert position with
its head up but not stretched upward and with its feet well under the hound and
forelegs vertical. The hound shall be placed on a non-slippery surface at floor or
ground level. The hound shall not be required to be posed, or set up as in a bench
show pose by the measurer. The Breed Inspector may request the handler’s
assistance in getting the hound to stand up. If the handler refuses to help
then the hound is scratched and turned in to the ARHA Office for being too
tall.

[SilverZuk]

Here is the very problem that gives me cold feet about getting serious about N.K.C. So many people judging dogs or situations that don't know the rules. This guy is asking about a possible rule violation because he doesn't know what the rules say about this and then says he has been a MASTER OF HOUNDS for TEN YEARS. I'm hoping I have misunderstood his question or about him knowing what to do. There is no direct bashing meant to any one person I'm only bringing out the situation and not the person.

Thanks for the answer of the original question.
If you have a question, this is the place to ask.
I am a judge, and some of the questions posted here I do not know the answer without looking up.
So by asking these questions, it makes us re-read the rules and more familiar with situations.
That counts for a lot and makes us all better handlers, judges, MOH's, and internet critics.

[pine top]

primetime21
in the rules vll breed inspector A / 9 if a hound is challeged the breed inspector may requst the handlers assistance in getting the hound to stand up . if the handler refuses to help then the hound is scratched and turned in to the arha office for being to tall.
no where in the rules does it say a handler can not scratch there hound for being challenged at the polls . but it does say if a hound challeged and found to be under 15 in it can not be chaiienged a secound time at the same hunt .
i personly think that if a handler scratches there dog for being challenged it shuold be automatic truned in to the office for being to tall be a good rule change for down the road . but as it stands i can not find a rule agenst it .
moh / LP jerry carter

[primetime21]

Thanks for all the input I also read what was posted here and determined same answer but was just wanting to make sure was not one of those unwritten but enforced rules maybe being published at later date.




Thanks Again for all the input