rules violation?

[nky beagler]

so silver zuk what your saying is the rule book is more of a guideline the judge or moh can really make any call they want as long as they use judgement call when they explain it to the handlers im just finding this hard to believe that people drive hours to hunts and spend all kinds of money to have someone say sorry about your luck yeah the rules probaly werent followed im going to side with them anyway just so we can get the hunt overwith faster . to me this just dosent seem fair rules are rules you either abide with them or you dont so far everybody on here has said the right call was made but i still dont understand unless someone comes on here and says we dont have to go by the rule book we just make up our rules as we go along, have a nice day. that would make more sense to me

[Pine Mt Beagles]

NKY BEAGLER

THE JUDGES TRY TO GO BY THE RULES FOR THE MOST PART.BUT IF -2-HOUNDS ARE IN A THICKET AND ONE IS BARKING A LITTLE THEN ANOTHER STARTS BARKING AND YOU CAN'T SEE IN THERE THE JUDGE GIVES THE JUMP AND STRIKE TO WHO EVER HE WANTS TO ,THAT IS CALLED A JUGDEMENT CALL. IT HAPPENS EVERY DAY AT THE HUNTS AND IF THE DOGS ARS RUNNING AND THE HANDLERS HAVE TO STAY BACK AND CAN'T SEE THE CHECKS THE JUDGE MAKES A JUDGE MENT CALL AND EVERY ONE KNOWS THIS.IF DOGS SPLIT" THE JUDGE DECIDES WHICH DOGS TO GO WITH YES ANOTHER JUDGEMENT CALL. YES IT IS END LESS "I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RULES ARE FOR ANYMORE IT SEEMS THAT THE JUDGEMENT CALLS GO IN THE SAME DIRECTION A LOT,,,, P.S I HAVE NOT SEEN MANY JUDGEMENT CALLS CHANGED BY THE M.O.H--.ACTUALY ONLY ONE IN OVER 20 PLUS YEARS----.J.M.O. GOOD LUCK AND


KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[warddog]

I keep seeing folks saying re-run a cast BUT I fail to see anywhere in the rules that state any cast is to be re-run. What I do see the rules stating is that when you ELECT to participate in a trial you are agreeing to the rules which state the judges decision is final. If you do not agree with that decision in the field and you want to protest it then don't sign the score card and then take it to the Master of Hounds when you get back to the club house within the time limits. After the master of hounds investigates the incident they will render a decision which is also FINAL unless the owner/handler wishes to pay $50.00 to file a "Formal" complaint with the watchdog committee. No where have I read that there is a single incident where a cast is to be re-run and if a mistake is made that could have an impact on how the dogs finsihed then if the watchdog committee rules that way the entire hunt license may be withdrawn and the hunt declared as a non licensed hunt and NO points awarded. By the way the watchdog committee's decision is FINAL and not open to appeal. Someone stating that a rules violation mandates the re-running of the cast needs to show where the RULES make such a statement and in fact someone needs to show where the mention of re-running any cast is made in black and white in the rules. IMO the rules are made so as the Judge, the MOH and the watchdog committee are the sole avenues for resolution of protests and there is no intent of running casts over for any reason. The rules state quite clearly that the decision made by the Judge in the field is final but the owner/ handler may protest it by taking it up with the MOH and if the owner/handler doesn't agree with the decision of the MOH then they can appeal to the watchdog committee for $50.00 with the understanding that their decision is FINAL and not subject to appeal.

[nky beagler]

send it on for 50.00 what good would that do the hunts over in this case the judge explained to the handlers and moh that 1 dog was put on the clock and after about 2 minutes another dog barks 3 times in another direction so he puts him on the clock also starting another 3 mins so thats about 5 mins total they were not under brush everybody could see the dogs but it seems everybody on here wants to overlook the fact that there are rules to go by lets say a guy signs up to judge that dosnt have a license would that be ok as long as the outcome would have been the same i think this was a new judge that didnt know he did anything wrong but i would hate to be the one that told these handlers thanks for your money but we dont care if its fair or not what would be the harm if there was a rules mistake to run it over,if we are always going to back the judges we dont need a moh just let the president handle it

[Big Dog]

To Nky Beagler - The rule violation that took place in this cast did not have any affect on the other 4 dogs in the cast. The one dog that was affected received a minus 10, when the MOH heard the appeal he gave the dog that was affected his 10 points back. It would be irrational to re-run this cast just for the sake of re-running it. Nobody else lost or gained anything, the rules violation was properly addressed and the points given back, help me to understand your rationale on why the cast needed to be re-run? Who got cheated out of something or lost something in this incident. If other dogs in the cast lost or gained points due to the rule violation then I agree lets re-run the cast, but if the other dogs were not affected and the score was made right then the cast ended up just as if the rules violation hadn't happened. What in the outcome of the cast changed or should have changed as a result of the rule violation. It seems to me that the rational thing was done here.

[nky beagler]

ok im going to write this real slow so everyone understands what im saying you take away the minus i agree it dosent change outcome but what about the 3 or 4 minutes lost while the other dog was put on the clock ive not been to alot of hunts but i have seen hunts won and lost in the last few seconds on a strike jump are you telling me that nobody on here has had that happen that 3 or 4 minutes could have changedoutcome if the dogs had been moved after the 3 mins went by on the 1st dog maybe or maybe not i think the 2nd place dog only got beat 10 points so a strike would have tied it

[Blu Tick Beagler]

I was the MOH at the little world. This scenario was never brough to me as a protest. I did have one where 3 minutes ran out and the judge just moved them on his own(but 1 stayed back) with out telling the handlers. He put a second dog on the clock(the one that didn't move) and minused it w/o moving that hound. Either way, the outcome of the cast was not determined by that minus..

Once again...Here's the scenario that was brought to me. Nothinig else happened during this time frame.. So you can throw out all of the "maybe/maybe not" and "what if's" and every other scenarion of what might have happened.. based on the information i had..... THE MINUS WAS REMOVED< AND THE SAME HOUND WON THE CAST...NOTHING CHANGED, THE JUDGE ADMITTED HIS MISTAKE, HE SHOULD HAVE YELLED LOUDER, THE HOUNDS SHOULD HAVE BEEN MOVED, WE ALL TALKED ABOUT THE RULE, AND WE MOVED ON. I took this one as a couple guys that lost and were grasping at straws to get a cast re-ran..

If you need further clarification catch me at the next hunt.. I'll be at the North American, MOH at the Spring Nationals, World Hunt, Ohio State..etc... I'd be happy to buy you a cup of coffes and sit as BS about rules and scenarions...Happy hunting!

[warddog]

Folks, never having ran a beagle trial I guess I'm having as hard of a time understanding these rules violations as the other guys thinking the cast should have been rerun. I've read through the LP rules many, many times now and it addresses nearly every situation from General rules to conducting the hunt, running rules, scoring procedures, strike, jump,checks, minus pts, disqualification, dead track, hunters, spectators, time, breaking ties and the selection of the winner. I've asked and I've not been given an answer as to what mandates the re-running of a cast. I'll tell you why because it in itself is a rules violation as it is NOT addressed in the rules at all. When folks attend a trial they are going to a sporting event just as a football, baseball or basketball game. They enter into it knowing that they will be judged by a set of rules by a referee or a third nutral party. Judges and referees make decision calls and they also make mistakes and miss things BUT when that is done they try to correct it and move forward with the outcome. NO event is replayed because the referee (s) made a mistake or missed something. Just as in the coon hound trials I attended for years the questions are aired with the judge, then with the MOH for their decision on the interpretation of the rules, witch by the way is final and the hunt placements are completed. If the owner/handler still thinks they have a legitimate protest they can appeal to the rules committee with a $50.00 fee. I have no idea of how many $50.00 appeals happen but I can tell you it sure stops the blowing smoke with the judge and the MOH as I have never seen anyone put up the $$$ after it was all said and done. One would think that if it was such a big issue and the money spent on travel, entry fees, etc was as much of a factor as claimed then the $$$$$ "Formal" protest fee should be of little consequence. In my 30+ years of compitition coon hunting I have never heard of any mention of re-running a cast period and think that it may very well be a rules violation in and of itself as that's why the rules address the protest procedures as they are and state perfectly clear that the MOH's decision is final. I'm waiting for someone with the knowledge and experiance in beagle trials to show me where the rules make provisions for the re-running of ANY cast as I'm trying to understand how something can be practiced but yet not addressed at all in the written rules.

[Big Dog]

To Nky - I have seen hunts won in the last 3 or 4 minutes, but in this case all of the dogs were still out hunting so they had every opportunity to get a strike or a jump, if this had happened then it might have warranted re-running the cast, but since they didn't jump or strike during that time-frame then they didn't lose out on any minutes. If there were two dogs on the clock at the same time the most additional time taken was less than 3 minutes.[/url]

[SilverZuk]

so silver zuk...

If I remember correctly you don't run ARHA LP.
The rules are the rules.
I assume you didn't read them?
Take the time to read them and see if you see "wiggle room" - they are pretty cut and dry.
A good experienced judge applies them accurately.

You are criticizing something you know next to nothing about.
My advice to you is either to
1. Read the rules and go check a couple trials out, form your own opinion.
or
2. Don't worry about it and quit criticizing something you know very little about.

[SilverZuk]

when folks attend a trial they are going to a sporting event just as a football, baseball or basketball game. They enter into it knowing that they will be judged by a set of rules by a referee or a third nutral party. Judges and referees make decision calls and they also make mistakes and miss things BUT when that is done they try to correct it and move forward with the outcome. NO event is replayed because the referee (s) made a mistake or missed something.

I want WVU to replay Pitt because the refs missed a couple of calls.
It is not fair, so they should replay the whole game.












People take trialing way too seriously. It is just a game like anything else.
If your dog wins, congratulations but don't think you have the best dog in the world because it won a trial, or championed, or won a big hunt.
It has the same faults as it did yesterday.